WesWorld

The Polish Navy's Dreams for a capital ship have not been tossed aside, only put off until support ships for the Polish Navy are complete. Once this is done (coincedently when Poland's infrastructure rises from 4 to 9) Poland will be once again in the capital ship business. These ships would be part of a class of 2 as well as the 2 Warsawa's that have been put on hold until Polish support ships reach an acceptable level.

Warsawa, Poland Battlecruiser laid down 1940

Displacement:
26,682 t light; 27,925 t standard; 29,119 t normal; 30,075 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
739.27 ft / 721.78 ft x 86.94 ft x 29.53 ft (normal load)
225.33 m / 220.00 m x 26.50 m x 9.00 m

Armament:
9 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (3x3 guns), 996.49lbs / 452.00kg shells, 1940 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
16 - 4.33" / 110 mm guns (4x4 guns), 40.61lbs / 18.42kg shells, 1940 Model
Dual purpose guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
4 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1940 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
32 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in one mount, 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1940 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mount
on centreline aft, 16 raised guns - superfiring
32 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (8x4 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1940 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 9,696 lbs / 4,398 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 11.0" / 279 mm 503.30 ft / 153.41 m 11.19 ft / 3.41 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 107 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.97" / 50 mm 469.16 ft / 143.00 m 27.11 ft / 8.26 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 10.6" / 269 mm 7.48" / 190 mm 8.27" / 210 mm
2nd: 1.97" / 50 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
3rd: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -
4th: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -
5th: 0.39" / 10 mm - -

- Armour deck: 4.25" / 108 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 179,063 shp / 133,581 Kw = 33.00 kts
Range 5,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,150 tons

Complement:
1,113 - 1,448

Cost:
£14.982 million / $59.930 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,063 tons, 3.7 %
Armour: 9,024 tons, 31.0 %
- Belts: 2,597 tons, 8.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 927 tons, 3.2 %
- Armament: 1,812 tons, 6.2 %
- Armour Deck: 3,443 tons, 11.8 %
- Conning Tower: 245 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 4,788 tons, 16.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,608 tons, 39.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,437 tons, 8.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 200 tons, 0.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
37,745 lbs / 17,121 Kg = 43.7 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 5.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 4.7 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 16.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.76
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.550
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.30 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.87 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24.61 ft / 7.50 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 24.61 ft / 7.50 m
- Mid (50 %): 24.61 ft / 7.50 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 24.61 ft / 7.50 m
- Stern: 32.81 ft / 10.00 m
- Average freeboard: 25.23 ft / 7.69 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 107.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 184.4 %
Waterplane Area: 43,794 Square feet or 4,069 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 172 lbs/sq ft or 841 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.55
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent


Basically the Warsawa's with 12in rather than 11in guns. Thoughts?

That with a 1940 laydown date by the time she's done the 12" will be as useless as 11" is now. Combine that with the propencity to build 10" cruisers here the 33kts won't be fast enough cuz those CA's will be a real issue for her.

Also, congrats on post # 300.

I'm a little bit surprised, how poland will made this raising of his economy. The construction of 5 factories still needs 50 IP's. And the whole 50 IP's will spend poland in 4 years ???? The BC will be laid down in 1940.

...yes, how is Poland suddenly jumping up in IP so quickly? You have four factories now, which means that even if you apply maximum dedicated production, it will take you (calculates) all of your production from Q1/1936 to Q4/1940 (taking advantage of the end-of-year bonuses for fixed production), just to get enough IP for *one* new factory! From the looks of the Q3/35 report you have a new half factory with 2.9 IP remaining to completion, but sorry, that's tiddly winks to get from 4.5 factories to 9.

A possibility:
Lithuania - 2 factories
Latvia - 2 factories

This likely wouldn't happen by military means, though in politics you should never say "Never!"


So, Poland may well get back into the "waste of steel" business, to the renewed amusement of the Russian Naval Staff!

OOC: The "waste of steel" business refers to the thread below, and is no reflection on your design skills.

http://wesworld.jk-clan.de/thread.php?threadid=5565&sid=

Quoted

Originally posted by AdmKuznetsov
A possibility:
Lithuania - 2 factories
Latvia - 2 factories

I considered that, but that would still leave one factory (or possibly .5 factories) unaccounted for in this "new" infrastructure.

Quoted

Originally posted by AdmKuznetsov
A possibility:
Lithuania - 2 factories
Latvia - 2 factories

This likely wouldn't happen by military means, though in politics you should never say "Never!"


So, Poland may well get back into the "waste of steel" business, to the renewed amusement of the Russian Naval Staff!

Certainly the German POV is that it would make more sense for Poland and Lithuania to merge than for them to sit here and fight one another (though that was BEFORE their latest spat). Latvia..... well, Germany wouldn't be opposed to that either.

Quoted

So, Poland may well get back into the "waste of steel" business, to the renewed amusement of the Russian Naval Staff!

Considering the proximity of Russia, I think that the Russian Naval Staff should try to make a profit our of Poland's "waste of steel" business by building ships for them or leasing slips/docks to them.

There's Class 3 slips empty in Petrograd, available for a reasonable fee.

What do you define as reasonable?

Don't forget, the PRJ could pool their resources togeather so its possible that polands Factory tally could also go up that way, though its likely the IP's from the other two would most likely be repayed at a later date.

Given the last fiasco by Poland seeking Lithuanian treasure I doubt they will try that route again unless they have the full suppport of their PRJ allies and another larger nation.

Quoted

Originally posted by thesmilingassassin
Don't forget, the PRJ could pool their resources togeather so its possible that polands Factory tally could also go up that way, though its likely the IP's from the other two would most likely be repayed at a later date.

Given the last fiasco by Poland seeking Lithuanian treasure I doubt they will try that route again unless they have the full suppport of their PRJ allies and another larger nation.

Actually, the mixup comes from me not reading the infrastruce rules correctly. I though it only took 1 IP to build a factory, my mistake.

Never thought of the sharing resources. The current scheme is in limbo right now, because I don't know what the Yugo's are doing. However, because they are the weakest of the three, I wasn't going to ask them for resources. My naval industrial powerhouse which is saddly enough Romania at 6 IP's. would be giving the most (.3 IP points/quarter) and could still have enough tonnage left over to build whatever she wanted. In exchange for the lost tonnage, I was going to have Poland pay for a 2 BB's for Romania during the 40's.

Yes, I realize that the 12 in gun will be extremely deficent by 1940. However, I either build this or a slower ship which anyone can catch with 15in. Also, Poland is limited in both it's dockyard capability and limited industry so I can't build what I'd really like.

No, this Poland is NOT going to try a Lithuanian adventure again, even if every country in WW says she can. Poland lost too much foreign credibility over her last adventure to try something like that again. While Sikorski's a nationalist, he's also a realist, so sorry no more adventures for Poland. If you want adventures, go talk to your friendly SATSUMA diplomat.

I realize these ships are a waste of steel. However, the main reason I sold the Warsawa was not because I could't afford it, or the fact that it is more practical to build smaller ships (it is, but Pole and practical don't go together), but for political considerations. Building the BC when I shall be trying to restore Poland's credibility in the eyes of certain nations would be diplomatic suicide. Hence the decision to sell the Warsawa and postpone the other two till a later date. Although I agree building capital ships for Poland is not practical, the reason Poland wants to build them is for prestige.

Oh and just for everyone's interest, Poland would like another ally in PRJ. Current nations being considered are in no particular order, Germany, Nordmark, Denmark, the FAR, Turkey-Bulgaria or Italy. Of course should the future offers to these nations be rebuffed, Poland could go somewhere else not in Europe for allies.........

Yes, whatever did happen to Tanthalas? He took over Yugoslavia, posted some new aircraft, and then disappeared. I don't think I've seen him on since Q3 ended.

Also, re: PRJ looking for allies, Bulgaria is not entirely unsympathetic to the PRJ... but happens to remember the last time there was a similar alliance to the west and north of her. Romania rattling sabers during the Lithuania crisis, and Poland's involvement, has made Bulgaria skittish although the Treaty of Dobrich convinced many that Romania's noisiness was reactionary rather than provocative. As such Bulgaria's policy on any overtures by the PRJ is "wait and see". Bulgaria will never outright rebuff an offer of alliance, but in this particular case, it's like a band of thieves who robbed your house twenty years ago offering to have you over for dinner.

Does Turkey have an opinion?

I am suprised that Poland would consider allying with Germany. Hrolf's moved to stauch the bad blood, but I did not realise the two sides were close.

While Poland is likely thinking larger, Hungary and Czechoslovakia are two NPC nations that are adjacent to the PRJ. Hungary is unlikely because they were apparently not kind to their slavic subjects, but the Czechs might be willing- who knows, they are NPCs after all (which is convieniant as it makes historic skoda/avia/ckd/etc designs available to all)


Oh, and if people are looking for slips, Belgium has been/is still looking for ways to keep it's shipyards occupied and are quite willing to build other's designs.

OOC: I would think that the Czechs would be annoyed at Poland due to the near-war that occured in early 1935. That being said, I wouldn't mind having the Czechs or the Hungarians as an ally, in a CEA (Central Europe Alliance bloc to counter the other major nations).

Future alliances will of course be dictated by future events. If any one of the other Baltic States starts wanting Polish territory (and they all can base some dubious historic claim to it, even Denmark), then Poland's foreign policy will be to seek alliance with the other nations. If the other European nations decide they wish to see Poland broken up once again, then Poland may wish to seek alliance with a non-European alliance which is against European imperialism (do I have to spell it out?) to counter claims made by other Baltic nations.

Based on my observation, Poland is overreacting to perceived expansion, and perhaps ought to clean those blue mushrooms from the refrigerator.

Quoted

Originally posted by Kaiser Kirk
I am suprised that Poland would consider allying with Germany. Hrolf's moved to stauch the bad blood, but I did not realise the two sides were close.

While Poland is likely thinking larger, Hungary and Czechoslovakia are two NPC nations that are adjacent to the PRJ. Hungary is unlikely because they were apparently not kind to their slavic subjects, but the Czechs might be willing- who knows, they are NPCs after all (which is convieniant as it makes historic skoda/avia/ckd/etc designs available to all)

Oh, and if people are looking for slips, Belgium has been/is still looking for ways to keep it's shipyards occupied and are quite willing to build other's designs.

I wouldn't say Germany and Poland are close, but there have been proposals back and forth in the past on areas of mutual interest. There had been, in fact, discussions on Poland joining the Nordish-German alliance, but that predated the Lithuanian events of the summer of 1935.

Keep in mind, when suggesting the Czechs, that the Czechs have lost control of some of their territory to the Poles within the last year or so. So I doubt they're overly thrilled with their neighbor to the north.

Hungary is of limited value for a couple reasons: 1), they (not completely wrongly) keep wanting parts of their neighbors; and 2, they're still limited by treaty to a tiny army of 10,000 men and no air force. So...... what's the point?

OOC: Spoken from the man who has the second largest navy in the Black Sea allied to him. Overreacting? No, paranoia? Most definately.

The Nords, and the Danes we don't see as much of a threat. However, its not fair to warn only the Germans and the Russians that if either wishes the Polish Corridor (Germany) or the old Polish lands (Russia) then Poland will of course seek other nations to help it against this imperialism, (FAR in the case of Germany, Germany in the case of Russia). Course should these not occur then everything's good . I'm taking the stance that I'd rather warn other nations beforehand so they can take into account that should they make claims to Poland, then I'm not going to roll over and die.

On another note, is anyone running the Czechs atm? I wouldn't mind adding the them to PRJ, that way I wouldn't have to buy big guns from other nations, I could just use the Skoda works.

Uhm, the Danzig Corridor issue was settled in 1934, with Germany purchasing a lease on sufficient land for a double-track railway between Danzig and Germany.

As far as Czechoslovakia goes, keep in mind the issues with the Polish-Czech border earlier this year......

Quoted

On another note, is anyone running the Czechs atm? I wouldn't mind adding the them to PRJ, that way I wouldn't have to buy big guns from other nations, I could just use the Skoda works.

No, but it's not necessary in order to buy Skoda.

Right now, *everyone* can currently use Skoda- or CKD etc.
For example, both the Dutch and the Filipinos have used Skoda's design staff for tanks.
While Fokker did 'buy' Avia, thats merely because I needed to shake up Fokker,so Avia is still basically independent and available to all.

Quoted

As far as Czechoslovakia goes, keep in mind the issues with the Polish-Czech border earlier this year......

I forgot about the Polish-Czech problems ! The Poles
have been busy.

As for Hungary, the treaty of Trianon was kept in force basically by threats of invasion from what is now the PRJ countries. Dropping that would go a long way to fixing relations, and there are old economic links that were severed to no one's benifit at the breakup of the Empire.

Now that you mention territorial claims, I must say I found the Kracow area quite nice. I wonder if there is any Dutch grounds for a claim....


As for TheCanadian 's Q