WesWorld

I was perusing over the Map and Wikipedia and noticed a small puzzle that I wanted to bring up: Georgia is missing, but Azerbaijan and Armenia are present.

Now, as best as I understand this, in OTL Georgia, Azerbaijan, and Armenia were created after World War I, and survived until 1920-1921. Georgia was nominally under British protection but was overthrown by the Red Army. In OTL, Azerbaijan and Armenia were split by the Russians and the Turkish.

So... why do we have Armenia and Azerbaijan, but not Georgia? It was technically the last of the three Caucasian states to fall, and without the Russian Communists winning the revolution, would Russia have even tried to reclaim the territories?

I'd like to make a case for the existence of a Wesworld Georgia, if I may.

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The second part of my query relates to Azerbaijan and Armenia. Since neither of them historically survived there would seem to be no historical data for their armed forces. If it is permissible with all of you, I'd like to play Azerbaijan and Armenia to give them a bit more substance. [SIZE=1]And relating to the first question I made, if the country of Georgia exists, I'd like to build it's armed forces, too.[/SIZE]

I see from the NPC file that Azerbaijan and Armenia have the following:
Azerbaijan - 1 factory
at Baku:
1 Type 0 slip
1 Type 0 drydock

Armenia - 1 factory

While ultimately up to the good Admiral, I suspect that since the 1917 revolution went differently, the 1918 independence of Georgia simply never occurred.

Looking at Wiki, Georgia hasn't been independent since 1801. Though given Bharat's position re: the 1884 Vietnamese:French treaty, SATSUMA may not recognize Russia as being the legitimate govt. Which could lead to interesting things out of Persia. Other than that, everyone would.

From Wiki :

Quoted

Due to this national crisis, in 1783 Georgia signed the Treaty of Georgievsk with the Russian Empire, placing the eastern Georgian kingdom of Kartli-Kakheti under the Russian protectorate. Despite Russia's commitment to defend Georgia, it rendered no assistance when the Turks invaded in 1785 and again in 1795. This period culminated in the 1801 Russian annexation of remaining Georgian lands and the deposing of the Bagrationi dynasty.

A few decades later, Georgian society produced a modernist nationalistic elite which united Georgian society around the dream of the restoration of their once glorious state. In 1918, this dream was fulfilled and the Democratic Republic of Georgia (1918-1921) was established. This democratic experiment was short-lived, as in 1921 Georgia was occupied by Bolshevik Russia. Georgia was incorporated into the Soviet Union in 1922.

Quoted

Originally posted by AdmKuznetsov
minus Baku, are independent. Georgia is not.

Quoted

Originally posted by Vukovlad

Quoted

Originally posted by AdmKuznetsov
minus Baku, are independent. Georgia is not.

Baku is part of Azerbaijan according to the NPC thread, which I quoted above.

True, but that independence movement was still quite strong, and I would make the case that the catalyzing events, such as the assassination of Ilia Chavchavavadze in 1907, the weakness of Russia following the Great War, and such - all would happen in OTL and in the WW timeline. I don't feel that the political leanings of Russia affected the Georgian declaration for independence, only it's timing.

As such I believe that Georgia would try to declare independence in 1917 or 1918 regardless of how the Russian Revolution is going.

My biggest question is... why was Azerbaijan, a former Russian state, permitted to break away from Russia, while Georgia, with a stronger independence movement, did not?

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Let me provide a possible timeline, based on our own, for your consideration.

1907 - Assassination of Ilia Chavchavavadze, the leader of the Georgian independence movement, sparks outrage in Georgia. (As historical).
February 1917 - Russian Provisional Government forms the Special Transcaucasian Committee following the February Revolution. (As historical).
February 1918 - Transcaucasian Democratic Federative Republic declares independence from Russia. (As historical).
May 26 1918 - Georgia declares independence from TCDFR. (As historical).
May 28 1918 - Azerbaijan and Armenia declare independence from TCDFR and the TCDFR is dissolved. (As historical).
1920 - Georgia makes treaty with Russian Federation to assure rights of Russian citizens, nonaggression pact, de-facto independence but within the Russian sphere of influence. (Replaces Russian invasion of Azerbaijan and Georgia.)

I guess I'm just a bit puzzled that Azerbaijan remained independent and Georgia didn't.

You will have to ask AdmKuznetsov

Yes. And just to clarify, I am not wanting to be slicing and dicing Russia up just because I think Georgia ought to be independent. I just wished to ask why it was not, and to make a case for its independent existence in light of Azerbaijani independence.

Alternately it might be interesting to have Georgia as a protectorate of Russia, with its own flag and armed forces, but with all Georgians being dual citizens of Georgia and Russia, and Georgia following the Russian lead in international matters?

Speaking of Azerbaijan, did anyone have any comments about me making them and Armenia some armed forces?

Funny you should mention that, the Turks would very much like to raise an army for them

All kidding aside I'm sure they could use an army, cook something up and we can comment.

I can do Armenia right away. To do Azerbaijan I'd like to ask for clarification: does Azerbaijan control Baku, as the NPC thread stated, and the spot where the Azerbaijani shipyard is?

[SIZE=1]Not to run the Georgia topic into the ground, but I had another idea, if Georgia's independence is not happening. Perhaps to calm tensions in Georgia during the Revolution, Russia promised a timetable for independence? Say, wait twenty years (1937), hold a referendum, and we'll see?[/SIZE]

IIRC Baku is Russian, though it might be possible they Azeri's may have useage rights. Admiral K would know much better than I though.

[SIZE=3]Manpower [/SIZE]
40,000 men under arms

[SIZE=3]Organization[/SIZE]
Two Infantry/Mountain divisions of 11,000 men each, 1 cavalry brigade of 7,000 men. Regiments are composed of approximately 3,000 men divided into six battalions.

- 1st Mountain Division "The Armenian Legion" - 11,000 men total
--- 1st Infantry Regiment
--- 2nd Infantry Regiment
--- 3rd Infantry Regiment
--- 1st Artillery Battalion
--- 1st Supply Battalion
--- 2nd Supply Battalion
--- 1st Headquarters Company
--- 1st Mounted Reconnaissance Company
--- 2nd Mounted Reconnaissance Company

- 2nd Infantry Division "Azadoutioun gam Mah" - 11,000 men total
--- 4th Infantry Regiment
--- 5th Infantry Regiment
--- 6th Infantry Regiment
--- 2nd Artillery Battalion
--- 3rd Supply Battalion
--- 4th Supply Battalion
--- 2nd Headquarters Company
--- 3rd Mounted Reconnaissance Company
--- 4th Mounted Reconnaissance Company

- 1st Cavalry Brigade - 7,000 men total
--- 1st Cavalry Regiment
--- 2nd Cavalry Regiment
--- 3rd Artillery Battalion
--- 5th Supply Battalion
--- 3rd Headquarters Company

- 1st Greater Artillery Group
--- 4th Artillery Battalion
--- 5th Artillery Battalion
--- 6th Supply Battalion

The remainder of the Armenian Army is placed in staff, supply, headquarters, MP, etc.

[SIZE=3]Equipment[/SIZE]
The Armenian Army uses Russian-built Mosin-Nagant M1895 three-band rifles (7.62x54R) and Nagant pistols. Many Turkish and German-made Mauser rifles (8x57mm) have found a way into the Armenian arsenals, as have a thousand-odd Atlantean-made PO Rifles (Export Model of 1916, 7.62x54R) via Russia. Machine guns are Russian-manufactured Degtyarev DP type machine guns, in 7.62x54R.

Artillery is all Russian-manufactured or pre-1918 German (via Turkish) surplus.

No tanks.

Cavalry is equipped with Mosin-Nagant carbines, Nagant pistols, sabers, and lances.

[SIZE=3]Fedayee/Kamavor[/SIZE]
The Fedayee (Freedom Fighters) or Kamavor (Volunteers) are Armenia's militia reserve. They are best known for their guerrilla tactics during the Great War, using any weapons that came to hand. The Armenian government makes an effort to organize the Fedayee but has had varying amounts of success.

Notes: Armenia has a treaty with Russia. In case of war, Armenia presumes that Russia will be helping them.

The Armenian Air Force has two aerodromes located near Yerevan, and has roughly 2,000 men. The Armenian Airforce is also charged with operating antiaircraft artillery.

[SIZE=3]Organization[/SIZE]
- 1st Wing
--- 1.1 Interceptor Squadron
--- 1.2 Interceptor Squadron
--- 1.3 Light Bomber Squadron
--- 1.4 Liaison/ObservationSquadron
- 2nd Wing
--- 2.1 Interceptor Squadron
--- 2.2 Liaison Squadron
--- 2.3 Observation Squadron
--- 2.4 Light Bomber Squadron
- Air Defense Battalion
--- 1st Air Defense Gun Company
--- 2nd Air Defense Gun Company
--- Air Defense Spotter Volunteers Company

[SIZE=3]Equipment[/SIZE]
- 6 PZL P.1 fighters
- 12 Handly Page Type W bombers
- 20 Polikarpov I-5 fighters (or I-15 if that type exists here)
- 36 Polikarpov Po-2 Liaison/reconnaissance types

Pilots trained in Russia or France.

If the Air Force is too big then I'll cut 1st Wing out of the OOB and drop the P.24 fighters.

[SIZE=3]Manpower[/SIZE]
Azerbaijan has 90,000 men under arms.

[SIZE=3]Organization[/SIZE]
- 1st Army
--- 1/1 Division, Infantry
--- 1/2 Division, Infantry
--- 1/3 Division, Infantry/Cavalry

- 2nd Army
--- 2/1 Division, Infantry
--- 2/2 Division, Motorized Cavalry
--- 2/3 Division, Infantry

[SIZE=3]Equipment[/SIZE]
Small arms are composed primarily of secondhand French Lebel rifles, German G98 Mausers, and Russian Mosin-Nagant rifles. Machineguns are composed of French MAC M. 1924s or Lewis guns. (In short, the Azerbaijani supply corps has nightmares of trying to supply ammo for all their units.)

The 2/2 Division has a large number of trucks, artillery tractors, machinegun carriers, and some tankettes. Mauser Antitank rifles and antitank mines are distributed to all the units.

Azerbaijan sends many of its officers for education in Persia and Turkey, although recent Persian rhetoric has provoked a slight preference towards Turkey.

The Azerbaijani Air Force has its headquarters in Ganja and has six aerodromes around the country.

[SIZE=3]Organization[/SIZE]
- The Air Defense Group
- 4 Fighter squadrons
- 1 Light Bomber squadronn
- 1 Recon/Liaison squadron
- Army Cooperation Force
- 1 Fighter Squadron
- 2 Recon/Liaison squadrons
- 1 Artillery Spotter squadron
- 1 Transport squadrons
- Tactical Bombing Group
- 1 Recon squadron
- 2 Light bomber squadrons

[SIZE=3]Equipment[/SIZE]
- 48 Avia B-534 fighters
- 69 Polikarpov Po-2 general types
- 24 Airco DH.9A reconnaissance/spotting planes
- 32 Polikarpov R-5 light bombers
- 8 de Havilland Dragon Rapide transports

Pilots trained in Turkey or Persia.

Diplomatic Outlook of Armenia:
- Russia: Allied
- Turkey: Neutral (no Armenian genocide) to poor (different religions)
- Persia: Neutral to poor (rhetoric about Persian expansion; different religions)
Azerbaijan: Neutral to fair
- Europe: No regular contact with all but major powers
- United States: Fair to good: US supported Armenian independence.
- SATSUMA: Who?
- FAR: friends of Russia, they must be okay.

Diplomatic Outlook of Azerbaijan:
- Russia: Neutral; they sell us airplanes, but they run Baku. We want Baku.
- Turkey: Fair to Good, we and the Turks might be working towards an alliance...
- Persia: Neutral to poor (rhetoric about Persian expansion)
Azerbaijan: Neutral to fair (at least we can beat THEM if necessary...)
- Europe: No regular contact with all but major powers
- United States: Neutral to no contact
- SATSUMA: Neutral; Friends of Persia, meh.
- FAR: Neutral; friends of Russia and Armenia, meh.

Post Reserved.

Azerbaijan - 1 factory
at Baku (?):
1 Type 0 slip
1 Type 0 drydock

Suggest two 800-1000t torpedo/gunboats and eight 50t MTBs.

Just a remark on relations. Relations between persia and Armenia maybe poor due to recent events but not because of religion as Armenia for a long time looked to Persia as protector against its neighbors, I also doubt that Armenia has forgot the fighting with Azerbaijan so readily.
The FAR powers:
France probably good due to Great war events see Armenian Legion

Russia probably neutral or fair, Russia was a protector against the neighbors but also the bullying older brother.

Azerbaijan - Armenia, probably poor due to conflicts not resolved since the Middle ages

Azerbaijan-Persia, maybe poor at the moment but still there are long historical and not seldom family ties to Persia

Azerbaijan-Turkey: Probably fair for much the same reason as the Armenian-Russian relation

Poor relations with FAR and the UK because of the Great War support to Armenia and Baku

Don't forget Atlantean relations, which should be fair to good in Azerbaijan and good in Armenia. Atlantis was a stanch supporter of their independance.

Atlantean/ersian relations are fair to neutral at the moment, should stay that way so long as nothing comes out of Persian musings about their former empires.

Keep in mind also, historicaly Armenia and Azerbaijan along with Georgia breifly toyed with a unified state. I'm sure something similar would have been tried in WW.

Quoted

Originally posted by thesmilingassassin
Keep in mind also, historicaly Armenia and Azerbaijan along with Georgia breifly toyed with a unified state. I'm sure something similar would have been tried in WW.

That was the "Transcaucasian Democratic Federative Republic" and it's one of the big reasons I wanted to make the claim for Georgian independence.

Well one explaination could be that Georgia was not part of the talks and Armenia and Azerbaijan couldn't reach the temperary agreement the three nations did historically.