WesWorld

I couldnt find any news about the Grand Scuttle at Scapa Flow, could someone point me to the thread? Or was it considerd to happen before the sim started?

if it is considerd before the sim started I will have some questions who should I adress them to?

It's considered to have happened before the sim started. The only known survivors of the HSF capital ships were the three battleships that Germany has/had (Helgoland, Prinzregent Luitpold, and Markgraf), those were apparently so beaten up from battle damage they could not sail to Scapa at the time of the Armistice.

what im realy interested in is how deap of watter the ships are considerd to be sunk in? for example from pictures it apears that Hindenburg could have easily bene refloated right after she was sunk (looks like half the ships freeboard is still out of the watter)

here is a list with the dates of salvage. Cones from a listing and I feel lazy. reads name of the ship, type, what happen and when it was salvaged.

Battleships, Battlecruisers and Cruisers Interned at Scapa Flow
Ship
Seydlitz
Moltke
Von der Tann
Derfflinger
Hindenburg
Kaiser
Prinzregent Luitpold
Kaiserin
König Albert
Friedrich der Grosse
König
Grosser Kurfurst
Kronprinz Wilhelm
Markgraf
Baden
Bayern
Bremse
Brummer
Dresden
Koln
Karlsruhe
Nürnberg
Emden
Frankfurt Type
BC
BC
BC
BC
BC
BB
BB
BB
BB
BB
BB
BB
BB
BB
BB
BB
CL
CL
CL
CL
CL
CL
CL
CL Sunk/Beached
Sunk 1350 GMT
Sunk 1310 GMT
Sunk 1415 GMT
Sunk 1445 GMT
Sunk 1700 GMT
Sunk 1315 GMT
Sunk 1315 GMT
Sunk 1400 GMT
Sunk 1254 GMT
Sunk 1216 GMT
Sunk 1400 GMT
Sunk 1330 GMT
Sunk 1315 GMT
Sunk 1645 GMT
Beached
Sunk 1430 GMT
Sank 1430 GMT
Sunk 1305 GMT
Sunk 1350 GMT
Sunk 1350 GMT
Sunk 1550 GMT
Beached
Beached
Beached Fate
Salvaged November 1929
Salvaged June1927
Salvaged December 1930
Salvaged August 1939
Salvaged July1930
Salvaged March 1929
Salvaged March 1929
Salvaged May 1936
Salvaged July 1935
Salvaged 1937
Unsalvaged
Salvaged April 1933
Unsalvaged
Unsalvaged
To Britain, sunk as target 1921
Salvaged September 1933
Salvaged November 1929
Unsalvaged
Unslavaged
Unsalvaged
Unsalvaged
To Britain, sunk as target 1922
To France, scrapped 1926
To USA, sunk as target 192

Some time ago I was looking for... something (can't remember what) and ran across something about diving to the wrecks at Scapa. IIRC, you're looking at something like 40-70 meters or so (depeding on the ship) but it has been quite a while ago that I was looking at that data.
... and Royal Oak was off limits for divers for obvious reasons.

Bulgaria has Helogoland these days, was rebuilt in 1933.

I was only asking becasue it always seemd a bit of a travisty that none of the superb german BCs were around for WW2, and since the watter that Hindenburg sank in was so shallow, i was thinking about bouncing a story of her being salvaged and refit during the early 20s off the board (while I would love Yugoslavia to be the country to do it, i doubt that would get aproval). but maybe the UK would hae done it.

Hinderburg was salvaged IOTL in 1930 but original salvage operations were started in 1926. A storm caused the ship to sink again and salvage didn't started again until 1930.

From http://www.scapaflow.co.uk/

- König almost upside down in 34-37m of water.
- Kronprinz Wilhelm upside down in 38m of water.
- Markgraf on her starboard side in 24m of water.
- Brummer on her starboard side in 34m of water.
- Karlsruhe on her starboard side in 24-27m of water.
- Koln on her starboard side in 34m of water.
- Dresden on her starboard side in 33-36m of water.


... so I was a bit off with the 40-70 meters. Any of the other HSF ships scuttled at Scapa that are still there in 1935 will probably be at similar depths as given above.

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Originally posted by perdedor99
Hinderburg was salvaged IOTL in 1930 but original salvage operations were started in 1926. A storm caused the ship to sink again and salvage didn't started again until 1930.

ya i was playing with the idea of an even sooner salvage operation like 1922, but i wont bother working it up if the board dosnt find the idea plausable

Be careful what you wish for. If Japanese scrap dealers got hold of the ships... Well I'm sure Harlock would love to have a BC.

so whats the verdict i have the story mostly worked out, just not comited to paper (and would have to ask permision from a few players to use their countrys I atleast hope that wouldnt be a big deal though)

if its aproved I can set it in whatever year the mods would like (i know revisionist history) but i realy think it could make for interesting storyline material.

I don't have a problem with it on principle, so long the story for it's entertaining enough.

But I'm just an American nutjob ruining Canada's reputation and good name; I'd say it's up to the original owners (Germany and UK), and the Rulemakers (Wes, Hoo, etc).

I think it depends on when the storyline takes place.

Seeing as its been common knowledge in the sim that these ships were "off the board" it would be somewhat unfair to the smaller navy's who have been building up for some time to suddenly have a resurrected High seas fleet to contend with.

I doubt the ships would be in decent enough condition to raise and refit in 1935/36 either.

Cost would be a huge issue, if the larger navy's don't want to do it, I don't see the smaller ones doing it either.

Maybe, and its a big maybe, 1 vessel is raised and rebuilt at a great cost, but personally I don't think its worth it. It would almost certainly be cheaper (and definately easier) to actually build a new vessel.

Theres no real point in raising the ships unless you want scrap iron. Considering that the ships were worn out by the end of WWI and suffered extensive damage twice during that conflict. Their spell under the waves will gut the insides.

Look at Italy, Leonardo Da Vinci was sunk in harbour, in shallow water and with pretty minimal damage. She was raised post-war but found to be in poor material condition (plus lack of money) so she was scrapped instead.

Derfflinger itself would be an extremely bad ship to try and modernise. Adding more weight will make her have the seakeeping qualities of a submarine, she was bad enough in her initial condition with about 12ft freeboard amidships (Hood gets slated for poor seakeeping but her freeboard aft is 17ft). The ships are extremely cramped already so adding more crew is very difficult. Theres not much chance of adding more superstructure because of her layout. Internal space is also limited because of the layout with limited ability for larger turbines and boilers.

You'd be better off building a new ship.

Posting the story would still be good.

Tanthalas, why not make the story about the Viribus Unitis and Szent Istvan (yes I know you dont want them)?

Or about my absolut favorite ship of WW1, The Hindenburg (that lovely 9-1 from WiF)?

And why dont you answer PMs

In sim, there's also another problem in that the Cleito Treaty, up until quite late in it's life (1932, if I remember correctly), did not allow signatories to sell used warships. The UK was most definitely a signatory of the CT, so she couldn't sell the ship.

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Originally posted by Vukovlad
Tanthalas, why not make the story about the Viribus Unitis and Szent Istvan (yes I know you dont want them)?

Or about my absolut favorite ship of WW1, The Hindenburg (that lovely 9-1 from WiF)?

Originaly I planed to use the Austrian BBs, but they are all acounted for in the sim (well france sank one as a target and england another i think id have to go look again) that leaves the pair that was torped and blown up by frogmen... I was actualy planing on using Hindenburg as the ship for my story line (it was by far the easiest of them all to raise it was mostly above watter after all) TBH in SS atleast the Derfflingers refit very nice (wet foreward but meh im used to that from Nverse)

sort of what I was thinking (this is very broad btw)

the Italians sank Viribus Unitis & Szent Istvan, now Yugoslavia the nation they were given to isnt going to be to happy about this (least they wouldnt have bene if I had bene here from startup) this is where the story can go one of 2 directions

A Viribus Unitis is raised and refit (Szent Istvan is a total loss as I understand it)

B Yugoslavia raises kain with anyone that will listen (and several that wont listen sorry wes was planing to use atlantis in this catagory) about the loss of their national property.

in option A its relitivly simple I just do it, no great intrigues or anything, kinda boring

in option B finaly more as a joke and to shut the Yugoslavs (who are becoming very anoying over the whole issue) the brits Laughingly in 1921 (2 years of anoyance come on id be sick of it by that point) give them Hindenburg (either it was saved from sinking or it has to be raised Bayden I think was saved from sinking OTL)

I would write up all the 19XX stuff then i could flash foreward to 1933 or 1935 with a capitan taking whatever ship it was I used out of harbor. (any of them work the whole they said it couldnt be done thing and all that)

Red Admiral im impressed i guessed very very well then I estimated 12' at midbreak looking at a line drawing.

OH and Vuk i know how to fix them btw (the austrian BBs that is) other than the crapy L-B Rip out the aft SF mount works wonders on the girls.

Quoted

The UK was most definitely a signatory of the CT, so she couldn't sell the ship.

But it speaks of Ships. No mention is made about wrecks.

Quoted

Originally posted by Rooijen10

Quoted

The UK was most definitely a signatory of the CT, so she couldn't sell the ship.

But it speaks of Ships. No mention is made about wrecks.

How can it be a warship if it doesn't float?