WesWorld

The "American Citizen's Committee for Naval Excellence", a non-profit group of naval enthusiasts, presents the following designs to the US Naval Construction Board. ACCNE hopes the designs open discussion within Naval circles about how the USN can address the proliferation of so-called "large cruisers" (such as the Japanese Kongo-class, the Philippines' Samal and Bohol-classes, the Brazilian Rio de Janeiro-class, and the German Blucher-class, among others). ACCNE suggests that three units of this design could be built.

The design team set out to create a ship with a minimum speed of 33 knots, and attempted to keep down cost by using twin 12" turrets from the Delaware, Florida, or Wyoming class battleships. ACCNE is not aware of the status of these guns, so they might have been scrapped already. The new Dual-Purpose guns were also a requirement for the design.

[SIZE=1]ACCNE is a 501c3 not-for-profit organization completely made up by me for the purposes of presenting this design in as humorous a manner as possible.[/SIZE]

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Territory-class, United States Battlecruiser laid down 1936

Displacement:
26,941 t light; 28,221 t standard; 31,800 t normal; 34,663 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(749.18 ft / 729.00 ft) x 96.00 ft (Bulges 102.00 ft) x (31.00 / 33.18 ft)
(228.35 m / 222.20 m) x 29.26 m (Bulges 31.09 m) x (9.45 / 10.11 m)

Armament:
8 - 12.00" / 305 mm 50.0 cal guns - 914.66lbs / 414.88kg shells, 120 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1906 Model
4 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 5.00" / 127 mm 38.0 cal guns - 59.33lbs / 26.91kg shells, 150 per gun
Dual purpose guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1936 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
64 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 2.14lbs / 0.97kg shells, 1,000 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1936 Model
16 x 2 row quad mounts on sides, evenly spread
30 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 0.27lbs / 0.12kg shells, 150 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1936 Model
30 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 8,411 lbs / 3,815 kg

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9.00" / 229 mm 473.85 ft / 144.43 m 12.06 ft / 3.68 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 12.0" / 305 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
3rd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
4th: 0.50" / 13 mm - -

- Armoured deck - multiple decks: 6.00" / 152 mm For and Aft decks

- Conning towers: Forward 11.00" / 279 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 186,425 shp / 139,073 Kw = 33.00 kts
Range 15,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 6,443 tons

Complement:
1,189 - 1,547

Cost:
£13.305 million / $53.219 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,725 tons, 5.4 %
Armour: 8,698 tons, 27.4 %
- Belts: 2,172 tons, 6.8 %
- Armament: 2,108 tons, 6.6 %
- Armour Deck: 4,181 tons, 13.1 %
- Conning Tower: 238 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 5,231 tons, 16.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,187 tons, 35.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,859 tons, 15.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 0.3 %
- Hull above water: 50 tons
- On freeboard deck: 25 tons
- Above deck: 25 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
40,894 lbs / 18,549 Kg = 47.3 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 3.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 5.9 ft / 1.8 m
Roll period: 17.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 65 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.39
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
an extended bulbous bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.483 / 0.492
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.15 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 27.00 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 64
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 29.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.00 ft / 0.91 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 31.00 ft / 9.45 m, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Average freeboard: 22.72 ft / 6.93 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 78.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 161.8 %
Waterplane Area: 45,914 Square feet or 4,266 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 116 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 174 lbs/sq ft or 849 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.44
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Main guns (and turrets?) reused from Wyoming-class Battleships (12"/50cal); alternately can use guns from Florida and Delaware classes (12"/45cal).

Hmmmm. In comparison to Blucher, this design is 2 knots faster, 6000 tons or so larger, carries 8 12" vs 9 11.1" guns, almost twice the cruising range, similar belt armor, much heavier deck armor, but no torpedo bulkhead. I'd think the 5" guns would be better mounted as twins, and you'd want more than 150 rounds per gun. The 40mm fit is probably a little excessive at this point in time.

I have concerns over re-using the 12"/50 or 12"/45 guns. They are rather old and outdated. It would most likely be better to build a new design with better ballistic performance.

Overall I think that the design is just too large. Might as well go to a CA-2D type design with 12x12" guns.

I think Canis was satisfied with his New York City class, and wasn't planning on building anything cruiser-y until they were completed, at the least.

Quoted

Originally posted by Hrolf HakonsonI'd think the 5" guns would be better mounted as twins.

Design committee oversight. They should have been twins, yes.

As to using the old guns, I based the design off one on CanisD's webpage labelled "An "American Vanguard" reusing the 12" turrets from the Deleware and Florida classes for a 33 kt battlecruiser."

Really, I'm trying to provoke discussion about where the USN could go. It seems to me that the USN is significantly behind in terms of modern capital ships, so I've been playing with Springsharp to offer possible suggestions (in the form of the overenthusiastic armchair-organization ACCNE.) I know CanisD has been quite ill recently, so I can understand why there aren't many new US designs for me to ponder. So, I shall continue amusing myself.

I belatedly notice that Canis used the guns from those older dreadnoughts in the USN's coastal battleships/monitors. So. Back to the drawing board for me!

Canis had been discussing a few with us in the NATO forums before he took ill.

The US was mostly taking a "Wait and see" attitude to ascertain what the other major powers were going to build post-Cleito, but definately has some designs floating around.

As such the main building programs in the US currently center around modernizing the New Mexicos, the carriers Yorktown and Enterprise, and the New York City class Heavy Cruisers.

As I recall, all the 12" guns from those classes were mounted on the Passaic class and New Ironsides monitors.

Anything you need a 6" deck to face probably can't be hurt much by 12" guns, and should be avoided, not fought.

You could save well over 1000 tons by trimming it down to 4" or so, which is plenty to deal with the things this ship should be fighting.

I was going to suggest an "American Vanguard" use 14" guns off of New York, Texas, and maybe the Nevada class. (two of New York's turrets are on the Chilean "Coastal" Battleship Almirante Gideon)

Hmm. What about this idea, then? Switch to 9x14/50, heavy armor, on a 30-knot, more heavily-armored hull?

Oh look - I made the fat, weak sister of South Dakota.

Replacement Pennsylvania, United States Battleship laid down 1936

Displacement:
33,897 t light; 35,829 t standard; 39,992 t normal; 43,322 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(799.18 ft / 779.00 ft) x 104.00 ft x (31.00 / 33.05 ft)
(243.59 m / 237.44 m) x 31.70 m x (9.45 / 10.07 m)

Armament:
9 - 14.00" / 356 mm 50.0 cal guns - 1,452.45lbs / 658.82kg shells, 120 per gun
Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1906 Model
3 x Triple mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
1 raised mount - superfiring
16 - 5.00" / 127 mm 38.0 cal guns - 59.33lbs / 26.91kg shells, 350 per gun
Dual purpose guns in deck and hoist mounts, 1936 Model
8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
2 raised mounts
64 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 2.14lbs / 0.97kg shells, 1,000 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1936 Model
16 x 2 row quad mounts on sides, evenly spread
30 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm 60.0 cal guns - 0.27lbs / 0.12kg shells, 150 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1936 Model
30 x Single mounts on sides amidships
Weight of broadside 14,166 lbs / 6,426 kg

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 473.85 ft / 144.43 m 12.06 ft / 3.68 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 94 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 473.85 ft / 144.43 m 24.30 ft / 7.41 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 17.0" / 432 mm 12.0" / 305 mm 14.0" / 356 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -
3rd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
4th: 0.50" / 13 mm - -

- Armoured deck - multiple decks: 6.00" / 152 mm For and Aft decks

- Conning towers: Forward 16.00" / 406 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 147,068 shp / 109,713 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 15,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 7,493 tons

Complement:
1,413 - 1,838

Cost:
£16.914 million / $67.655 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,701 tons, 6.8 %
Armour: 12,344 tons, 30.9 %
- Belts: 2,959 tons, 7.4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 852 tons, 2.1 %
- Armament: 2,944 tons, 7.4 %
- Armour Deck: 5,186 tons, 13.0 %
- Conning Tower: 403 tons, 1.0 %
Machinery: 4,126 tons, 10.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 14,626 tons, 36.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 6,095 tons, 15.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 0.3 %
- Hull above water: 50 tons
- On freeboard deck: 25 tons
- Above deck: 25 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
58,849 lbs / 26,693 Kg = 42.9 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 9.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 6.3 ft / 1.9 m
Roll period: 17.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.60
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.15

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
an extended bulbous bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.557 / 0.566
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.49 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 27.91 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 61
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 29.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.00 ft / 0.91 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 20.00 %, 31.00 ft / 9.45 m, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Aft deck: 35.00 %, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m, 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Average freeboard: 22.72 ft / 6.93 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 83.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 168.8 %
Waterplane Area: 56,930 Square feet or 5,289 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 116 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 196 lbs/sq ft or 956 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.27
- Overall: 1.01
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine
Hmm. What about this idea, then? Switch to 9x14/50, heavy armor, on a 30-knot, more heavily-armored hull?

Oh look - I made the fat, weak sister of South Dakota.

LOL

The original version seemed to have a different "purpose" and would have as an OPFOR the growing numbers of ACs and BCs and ABCs. KLMNO..argh. This is more a fast battleship. Overall, I'm not sure which role in the USN battleforce this one is designed to play.

As that, my 'nitpicks' are mainly the belts' length. The USN used the armored raft concept, so the belt should be full length. A touch more height on the belt would be nice also.

I am also not sure when the 'extended bulbulous bow' came into use in naval construction, it might be early.
I presume the AA outfit is as built @1940, not as planned.
Oh, and I think more than 20seconds of 20mm ammo would be good.

With Cleito no longer being a factor, the USN is most certaintly done with the 14" gun, and extremely impatient to get some 16" or 18" guns fielded on it's next capital ships.

The 16"/50 will be the standard for new US Battleships. The Navy is still divided over whether or not to significantly increase fleet speed, with 28 looking like the max for the majority of any new battleline. With all the recent refits, Congress will be loath to start wholesale replacement of the fleet, so new construction will be limited for now.