WesWorld

Citing the South American War, the Asir-Saudi-Yemeni War, the practical activity in the South China Sea, and the Caribbean, and the unrest in the past several years stemming from civil wars, the Belgian government has passed the Naval Act of 1935.

The Belgian government would prefer to license build the vessels, but will consider exporting work depending on cost.

The Naval Act provides for an expansion of the navy to meet the following commitments and is soliciting bids:


1. Coastal and Riverine patrol for the country of Belgium.

The current navy has been designed to minimally meet the first category. However the vessels are elderly, unmaintained and in need of replacement.

Replacement vessels for the 22 x 1915 Vedettes and 14x 1914-15 Torpedo boats is sought. A total of 24 riverine patrol Vedettes and 24 Torpedo boats are sought.

2. A minelaying and removal force suitable to ensure control of the coastline of Belgium.

A flotilla of 8 vessels is sought, alternately a division of 4 minelayers and a division of 4 minesweepers.

3. A squadron of fisheries protection vessels suitable for work in the North Atlantic.
The current fisheries protection class is expected to fill this role. No further designs are sought.

4. A division (4) of escort cruisers and a squadron ( of escort destroyers suitable for escort of Belgian merchant vessels in areas of high pirate activities or warzones.

The escort cruisers will also have the role of search and rescue operations, and should house a small medical facility, boats and arms lockers for boarding parties, and berthing should be available for housing the crews of up to two merchants.

5. One vessel suitable for show the flag duties, to serve as fleet flagship.

The ship should be capable of defeating a heavy cruiser, or engaging an armored or battlecruiser. Aerial reconnaissance capacity could be of benefit. Speed is a bonus, but expected use is in defense of Belgian Mercantile traffic in high-threat regions.

preferences
Variances from these parameters are acceptable if necessary for a substantially superior vessel.

Room for expansion (+0.02 comp hull) and French(1) weaponry is preferred.
The preferred fuel is oil-sprayed coal.
Triple expansion machinery is preferred. Cruise speed should geared to 10-12 knots.

Range should be sufficient for maritime escort on major routes. Two basic ranges are deemed adequate : 3,500nm for Antwerp New York/Alexandria, and 5,000nm for Antwerp  Panama- Honolulu/San Francisco- Far East.


(1) As a matter of pride, the Belgians do not want to rely solely on the Dutch for maritime equipment. France, an ally and major source of weapons since 1916, is the natural choice. Dutch equipment is the second choice, and 3rd party the fourth.

Your local SAE weapon dealer would be pleased if you like to buy from RSAN designs. We regret our design teams are currently somewhat distracted by that conflict in South America so there´s no capacity for new designs. Modifications to existing units should be possible, however (light gun calibers etc.)....

Mexico can offer the following for #1:

Type 1 Motor launch

Demensions 110x17.5x4.6
displacement:60 tons
Armament 1x40mm forward, 2x20mm 4x0.50 cal mg, 12 D.C.
Machinery 4x 500 hp Roth petrol motor
speed 25 knots


Type 1 Motor launch, mine layer version

Demensions 110x17.5x4.6
displacement:68 tons
Armament 1x40mm forward, 2x20mm 2x0.50 cal mg, 6 mines
Machinery 4x 500 hp Roth petrol motor
speed 24 knots

License built Atlantean designs



River Gunboat (RGB)

Displacement, 20 tons
Dimensions, 50' x 12' x 2'
Armament, 1x47mm fow, 1x81mm mortar aft, 2x50cal MGs.
Speed, 10kts
Armor, 0.5"

Based on the British Pamela/Una class. Wood


River Patrol Boat (RPB)

Displacement, 5 tons
Dimensions, 29' x 9' x 2'
Armament, 2x50cal MGs.
Speed, 25kts

Based on US PBRs. Wood


Also Mexico can offer a new and yet unbuilt (due to funds) torpedo boat based on the Italian MAS boats and Atlantean Motor Launches:


Displacement: 100 tons
Armament: 2x47mm, 2x20mm 4x21"TT or 10 D.C.
Machinery: 4x 1200 hp Roth-Packard liquid cooled engines
Speed: 34 knots
Cruising radius: 2000 nm
Crew: 20


Also Mexico would like to inquire as to what size ships is Belguim looking for, for #2?



Australia can offer the following:

For #4, The Ballarat class escort cruisers. They have a 4 plane hangar which can be modified to meet the Belguim needs.

For #5, Australia can offer either the current CA design seen in the New Aussies Ships thread or an Escort version of it with reduced speed/cost.

Quoted

Originally posted by HoOmAn
Your local SAE weapon dealer would be pleased if you like to buy from RSAN designs. We regret our design teams are currently somewhat distracted by that conflict in South America so there´s no capacity for new designs. Modifications to existing units should be possible, however (light gun calibers etc.)....

Just as disclosure, I did browse around and look at encyclopedias, there are several foriegn designs that seem very suited for what I think Belgium "needs".

Posting here does ensure that they will be considered.

There are however a couple of questions
- Any and all designs open for purchase?
- Any weapon/sensor tech not included in sale? For example the Dutch have nascent fire control machines, radar, Hazemeyer gear and schnorkles that they would not include for foriegn sale.

Quoted

Originally posted by Desertfox
Mexico can offer the following for #1:
Type 1 Motor launch, mine layer version
River Gunboat (RGB)
Also Mexico can offer a new and yet unbuilt -
...
Also Mexico would like to inquire as to what size ships is Belguim looking for, for #2?
...Australia can offer the following:

The Type 1 and RGB both would work in the Vedette role, and the the unbuilt design is quite promising in the TB role.

As for category #2, size is really up to the designer, but 500-1000 tons in all likelyhood. While the primary use is Belgian coastal waters, they are looking for a vessel that can make transit over oceans, for example to the Baltic, the Red Sea or (just for instance) the Phillipines should warfare/civil war lead to mining and a threat to Belgian mercantile vessels.

I will take a look at the Aussie escorts, already saw the 9.2" cruiser, it is more or less what they are talking about. Different machinery/fuel could likely be arranged.

Quoted

Originally posted by Kaiser Kirk
Just as disclosure, I did browse around and look at encyclopedias, there are several foriegn designs that seem very suited for what I think Belgium "needs".

Posting here does ensure that they will be considered.

ASk for what you need and you´ll be given an answer. Generally speaking - there is little the SAE won´t sale to an ally....

Quoted

There are however a couple of questions
- Any and all designs open for purchase?
- Any weapon/sensor tech not included in sale? For example the Dutch have nascent fire control machines, radar, Hazemeyer gear and schnorkles that they would not include for foriegn sale.

Mexico doesn't have any 'high tech' stuff, while Australia has sold Carrier plans to China. So anything in my countries is fair game.

Quoted

The Type 1 and RGB both would work in the Vedette role, and the the unbuilt design is quite promising in the TB role.

The new design came about for the need for a large TB capable of long range, independant operations in the Caribbean. Atlantean MTBs where too small while the MLs where too slow. The Italian MAS boats where adequate but they had poor seakeeping. So Mexico took the best features from both ships and placed them in a bigger, better hull. A 75 ton prototype was built, but the Villas came around and took all the available resources.

Quoted

As for category #2, size is really up to the designer, but 500-1000 tons in all likelyhood. While the primary use is Belgian coastal waters, they are looking for a vessel that can make transit over oceans, for example to the Baltic, the Red Sea or (just for instance) the Phillipines should warfare/civil war lead to mining and a threat to Belgian mercantile vessels.

Hmm... The Australian Multi-Purpose ships of 1928 might be a better fit. The same hull was also used for a Destroyer Escort, so the same ship could also fullfill #4. They can be found here:
http://wesworld.jk-clan.de/thread.php?threadid=2612&sid=


But fooling around with SS2 over vacation I came up with the following. I was trying to see if I could fit a decent gunboat into a Type 0 slip. It could be modified to fit either #2 or #4.

General Zaragoza, Mexico Gunboat laid down 1938

Displacement:
751 t light; 799 t standard; 889 t normal; 962 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
230.00 ft / 230.00 ft x 30.00 ft x 11.00 ft (normal load)
70.10 m / 70.10 m x 9.14 m x 3.35 m

Armament:
4 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (2x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1938 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 1.85" / 47.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 3.17lbs / 1.44kg shells, 1938 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 263 lbs / 119 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
4 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm - -

- Conning tower: 1.00" / 25 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 14,604 shp / 10,894 Kw = 27.00 kts
Range 3,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 163 tons

Complement:
80 - 105

Cost:
£0.564 million / $2.255 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 33 tons, 3.7 %
Armour: 12 tons, 1.3 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 10 tons, 1.1 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 2 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 330 tons, 37.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 327 tons, 36.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 138 tons, 15.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 5.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
374 lbs / 170 Kg = 6.0 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
Metacentric height 1.1 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 12.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.83
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.04

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has low quarterdeck
Block coefficient: 0.410
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.67 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 15.17 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 70 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Mid (40 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Quarterdeck (25 %): 10.00 ft / 3.05 m (15.00 ft / 4.57 m before break)
- Stern: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Average freeboard: 13.87 ft / 4.23 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 155.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 91.6 %
Waterplane Area: 4,273 Square feet or 397 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 79 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 36 lbs/sq ft or 176 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 4.72
- Overall: 0.62
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

Quoted

I will take a look at the Aussie escorts, already saw the 9.2" cruiser, it is more or less what they are talking about. Different machinery/fuel could likely be arranged.

Same design with VTE, mixed Oil/Coal, reduced cruising speed. SS2 seems to hate VTE engines, so unless Belguim is willing to accept the much reduced performance/cost penalties, I would suggest sticking to turbines for the larger ships.

HMAS Bismark, Australia Cruiser Killer laid down 1935

Displacement:
14,093 t light; 14,810 t standard; 17,108 t normal; 18,947 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
706.30 ft / 700.00 ft x 70.00 ft x 26.00 ft (normal load)
215.28 m / 213.36 m x 21.34 m x 7.92 m

Armament:
9 - 9.20" / 234 mm guns (3x3 guns), 400.00lbs / 181.44kg shells, 1935 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
10 - 4.70" / 119 mm guns (5x2 guns), 67.00lbs / 30.39kg shells, 1935 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 1 raised mount
24 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (6x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1935 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
20 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (10x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1935 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 4,322 lbs / 1,960 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7.00" / 178 mm 371.00 ft / 113.08 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 82 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 7.00" / 178 mm 3.00" / 76 mm 7.00" / 178 mm
2nd: 1.20" / 30 mm - -

- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 7.00" / 178 mm

Machinery:
Coal and oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 51,008 ihp / 38,052 Kw = 27.00 kts
Range 15,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,137 tons (50% coal)

Complement:
747 - 972

Cost:
£6.820 million / $27.280 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 509 tons, 3.0 %
Armour: 3,819 tons, 22.3 %
- Belts: 1,115 tons, 6.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 770 tons, 4.5 %
- Armour Deck: 1,833 tons, 10.7 %
- Conning Tower: 100 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 2,989 tons, 17.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,625 tons, 38.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,015 tons, 17.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 0.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
23,988 lbs / 10,881 Kg = 61.6 x 9.2 " / 234 mm shells or 2.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.18
Metacentric height 4.0 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 14.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.63
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.51

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.470
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 30.30 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 42 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 46
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 9.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 2.50 ft / 0.76 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (40 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 20.32 ft / 6.19 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 81.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 154.2 %
Waterplane Area: 33,034 Square feet or 3,069 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 122 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 129 lbs/sq ft or 628 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.27
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Atlantis can offer the following designs. All these designs can have modifications as per requested.

1) Type 2 Motor launch

Demensions 118x20x4.6
displacement:60 tons
Armament 1x40mm forward, 2x20mm 4x0.50 cal mg, 12 D.C.
Machinery 4x 800 hp Spartan petrol motors
speed 28 knots

2) MS-26 class mine warfare ships

4)Torto class escort cruiser and the E-22 class Escort destroyer

Quoted

Originally posted by Desertfox
Same design with VTE, mixed Oil/Coal, reduced cruising speed. SS2 seems to hate VTE engines, so unless Belguim is willing to accept the much reduced performance/cost penalties, I would suggest sticking to turbines for the larger ships.

First, thanks for showing the alternate. The vessel definitely gets consideration. While at the small end of the size range, the Belgians would feel confident any marauding Cleito cruiser could be killed, or more importantly detered. Deterrence would probably work against that 10" armed pirate that sank the Indian Cruiser Male as well.

As for the VTE, you are correct it probably shouldn't be used for speeds over 20-21knts. Very maintainable system, but bulky. Recommendations of that sort are welcome.

Fuel : 50% (anything up to 90% coal) coal is appreciated. Combined with the vessel's range, that mean they can utilize domestic coal for most duties.

We shall see what others offer before I pester you for other tweaks

German manufacturers will not be submitting any designs since 1) they have no designs that are coal-fired/VTE propelled, and 2) they know they won't be allowed to win anyway.

Well, #1 shouldn't stop the Germans, that is a strong preference, more so the coal than the VTE. #2 just shows the German attitude is still anti-Belgian, which they knew because all Germans are monsters Hmm you might be right about #2.

It's simplest to just ignore the Belgians and pretend that the sea encroaches on the German borders there.

Quoted

Originally posted by Hrolf Hakonson
It's simplest to just ignore the Belgians and pretend that the sea encroaches on the German borders there.

So..you're next invasion of France will attempt to sail landing craft through Flanders? I have a feeling that's not a recipe for success.

Well, we seem to have run out of offers, so :

Belgian Naval Ministry :

Category 1.
Pending negations regarding cost, the Mexican RPB has been chosen for the riverine patrol vessel role and the Mexican 100-ton proposal has been selected for the torpedo boat role.

Category 2.
The Australian Multi-role hull, the Atlantean MS-26, and the South African Aloinopsis class were considered.
Pending negotiations regarding cost, the Atlantean MS-26 has been selected for acquisition.

Category 3.
The current fisheries protection vessels are adequate.

Category 4.
The Australian Ballarat, Atlantean Torto, and South African PC22 were evaluated for the escort cruiser role. Pending negotiations regarding cost, the Australian Ballarat has been selected for acquisition.

The Atlantean E-22 escort destroyer and South African Uranus-Class, and Naja class were evaluated. Pending negotiations regarding cost, the South African PC22, initially evaluated under the escort cruiser role, has been selected for acquisition.

Category 5.
The Australian designers have worked with us to present a very satisfactory vessel.
Pending negotiations regarding final form, cost, and place of construction, the Australian design has been selected for acquisition.

Quoted

Originally posted by Kaiser Kirk

Quoted

Originally posted by Hrolf Hakonson
It's simplest to just ignore the Belgians and pretend that the sea encroaches on the German borders there.

So..you're next invasion of France will attempt to sail landing craft through Flanders? I have a feeling that's not a recipe for success.

Perhaps we'll use amphibious vehicles, and keep looking for the sea until we find France.

Do the Belgians have any modification requests for the MS-26 design? I assume that 8 will be either purchased or licence built.

Quoted

Originally posted by thesmilingassassin
Do the Belgians have any modification requests for the MS-26 design? I assume that 8 will be either purchased or licence built.

They would prefer to license build them, depending on the cost differential.
edit: yep, 8 of them, fitted as combo minelayer/sweepers.

Only modification would be a conversion to a 90/10 coal/oil mix, I've copied the sim and checked, the vessel has plenty of hull for the extra bunkerage necessary for that. The Belgians will likely be mounting different weapons...something I need to actually figure out..

Right, since Fox's inbox is full...

The Belgians need to know the fees first, but they would prefer the 24 RPBs and 24 100-ton TBs be built in Mexico and shipped.

The Ballarat class in Belguim colors: