WesWorld

I had a couple of questions.

1. The Boerentange class CDS vessels were started and intended to be Cleito compliant. Once the Dutch realized that they may need to withdraw from the treaty, they launched them and they have been bobbing.

What is the accounting for refitting a launched but uncompleted hull? I have toyed with a number of ideas, but do not know the cost.
So do I pay to modify what's complete already, then simply complete the vesselt to the modified design?

2. While considering tankers and floating docks, I had the thought that both use the miscellaneous weight to represent basically void space- not staterooms/hospitals/machine shops/aircraft/etc.

Should not the miscellaneous weight, if it is representign a void space, be deducted from the build cost of the vessel?

On the second question, the best way I've seen so far to simulate a tanker in SS2 is to increase the range of the ship you're building. Miscellaneous weight puts the cargo too high in the ship, for one thing, in addition to costing additional tonnage.

The SS notes specifically say not to do that
It truely messes with the damage absorption capabilty.
I've got the tanker to prove it

The real fix is probably to use SS3, which allows for miscellaneous weight below the main deck. But the damage absorption shouldn't be much of an issue, that can be looked at and understood to be wrong.

I'm going to have to find my tanker-cruiser and post it to show how silly it can be.

Long before I got asked to be the Dutch player, I was playing with designs that I stuck "Holland" on as country of origin, because their real-world constraints were interesting.

Thus we have the Goliath class armored, self-escorting tanker. I have 4 versions, this is #3 followed by the lesser armed #1 at 15,000light. Note the effect of the fuel load on the survivability.

Goliath, Holland Armored Tanker laid down 1930

Displacement:
23,360 t light; 24,926 t standard; 47,250 t normal; 65,109 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
700.00 ft / 700.00 ft x 90.00 ft (Bulges 108.00 ft) x 31.25 ft (normal load)
213.36 m / 213.36 m x 27.43 m (Bulges 32.92 m) x 9.53 m

Armament:
4 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (2x2 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1930 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
24 - 5.98" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 107.15lbs / 48.60kg shells, 1930 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
20 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1930 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
200 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1930 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 6,688 lbs / 3,033 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 440.00 ft / 134.11 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Ends: 4.00" / 102 mm 260.00 ft / 79.25 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Upper: 4.00" / 102 mm 700.00 ft / 213.36 m 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
Main Belt covers 97 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
1.75" / 44 mm 440.00 ft / 134.11 m 32.00 ft / 9.75 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 5.00" / 127 mm 5.00" / 127 mm 5.00" / 127 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm

- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 89,011 shp / 66,402 Kw = 25.00 kts
Range 60,000nm at 16.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 40,184 tons

Complement:
1,602 - 2,083

Cost:
£7.935 million / $31.739 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 836 tons, 1.8 %
Armour: 7,850 tons, 16.6 %
- Belts: 3,471 tons, 7.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 912 tons, 1.9 %
- Armament: 580 tons, 1.2 %
- Armour Deck: 2,803 tons, 5.9 %
- Conning Tower: 84 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 2,697 tons, 5.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,477 tons, 24.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 23,890 tons, 50.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 1.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
139,113 lbs / 63,101 Kg = 161.0 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 31.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.76
Metacentric height 10.8 ft / 3.3 m
Roll period: 13.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 67 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.10
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.35

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
Block coefficient: 0.700
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.48 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.46 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 27.00 ft / 8.23 m (18.00 ft / 5.49 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Stern: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Average freeboard: 19.80 ft / 6.04 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 44.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 108.1 %
Waterplane Area: 50,496 Square feet or 4,691 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 231 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 153 lbs/sq ft or 746 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.07
- Longitudinal: 1.04
- Overall: 1.04
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily


Goliath, Holland Armored Tanker laid down 1930

Displacement:
15,064 t light; 15,994 t standard; 45,056 t normal; 68,305 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
640.00 ft / 640.00 ft x 90.00 ft (Bulges 110.00 ft) x 32.00 ft (normal load)
195.07 m / 195.07 m x 27.43 m (Bulges 33.53 m) x 9.75 m

Armament:
4 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1930 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
32 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (8x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1930 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 312 lbs / 142 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 1.90" / 48 mm 416.00 ft / 126.80 m 11.38 ft / 3.47 m
Ends: 1.90" / 48 mm 223.98 ft / 68.27 m 11.38 ft / 3.47 m
Upper: 1.90" / 48 mm 416.00 ft / 126.80 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
1.90" / 48 mm 416.00 ft / 126.80 m 31.11 ft / 9.48 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
2nd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -

- Armour deck: 1.90" / 48 mm, Conning tower: 1.90" / 48 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 76,884 shp / 57,355 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 80,000nm at 16.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 52,311 tons

Complement:
1,546 - 2,010

Cost:
£3.706 million / $14.824 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 39 tons, 0.1 %
Armour: 3,447 tons, 7.7 %
- Belts: 845 tons, 1.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 910 tons, 2.0 %
- Armament: 18 tons, 0.0 %
- Armour Deck: 1,623 tons, 3.6 %
- Conning Tower: 52 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 2,330 tons, 5.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,748 tons, 19.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 29,992 tons, 66.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 1.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
260,792 lbs / 118,293 Kg = 4,172.7 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 87.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 2.50
Metacentric height 17.1 ft / 5.2 m
Roll period: 11.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 72 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.45

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
Block coefficient: 0.700
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.82 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.30 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 27.00 ft / 8.23 m (17.00 ft / 5.18 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Stern: 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Average freeboard: 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 26.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 96.7 %
Waterplane Area: 46,167 Square feet or 4,289 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 505 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 127 lbs/sq ft or 619 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.01
- Longitudinal: 1.04
- Overall: 1.02
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Oh, agreed, the survivability number is scewed by the large fuel bunkers. But using miscellaneous weight is wrong as well, it puts the weight above the main deck, which is probably more wrong for a tanker than the survivability numbers are.

#1: Since nobody chimed on on #1, I'll presume that is correct. Which gets us to part "B" of the question....there's no "add bulges" element to the reconstruction rules.

There is add torpedo bulkheads at 50%. Considering that would likely mean re-aligning internal bulkheads, etc, that sounds more complex than a normal bulge- which were done instead. SO...25% to add a bulge???

#2 : Well Hrolf, on the one hand I want to agree with you, because it makes some sense, and I've fought that misc weight above the waterline problem; and most importantly it is an answer I want to hear.

But.... that Goliath #1 is carrying 52,311 tons of oil.
That just seems allot for a 15,000 ton ship. Converting that to miscellaneous weight doesn't just cause stability issues, it gives the hull a -1.69 rating. Maybe because the oil provides internal buffering that is ok. Maybe not.

So part "B"
Floating docks- again, the cargo is normally a void, should not "count" against the cost of ship materials. Should the fuel load be used to sim that?

Normal cargo vessels- again a void. Fuel or miscellaneous weight, pay or not.

Now, for things like amphibious transports, I presume the weight *all* should be paid since there are military goods involved, but the three vessels above do not seem to fall in quite the same category logically.

Agreed, 52,000 vs 15,000 seems like a lot. But then, all it's doing is containing the fuel in very large void spaces, so..... The one thing I'd be concerned about is deep draft and whether SS2 is taking that into account as the ship fills up.

Floating docks: Fuel weight's probably the closest thing we have in SS2.

Cargo ships: Fuel weight's probably the closest thing we have for some types of freighters (bulk freighters, iron ore boats, that sort of thing). I'm not sure about regular freighters, though. Those it would seem would be best suited to a mix (fuel and miscellaneous).

Amphibious transports: I wouldn't think you'd have to pay for the cargo weight, that's not something being built out of your ship-building budget after all.