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1

Monday, October 29th 2007, 12:38am

What do you do with an Italian cruiser hull???

THIS!!!!!!!



Magni, Denmark CV (Conversion from italian ACR hull) laid down 1933 (Engine 1934)

Displacement:
20,642 t light; 21,213 t standard; 24,202 t normal; 26,594 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
762.81 ft / 721.78 ft x 70.77 ft (Bulges 81.59 ft) x 26.25 ft (normal load)
232.50 m / 220.00 m x 21.57 m (Bulges 24.87 m) x 8.00 m

Airgroup:
24 Heavy Attack Aircraft
24 Dive Bombers
24 Fighters
2 Autogyros

Spare parts equivelant to 4 full aircraft

Dotted lines in hangers are blast doors

Armament:
8 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (4x2 guns), 52.72lbs / 23.91kg shells, 1933 Model
Dual purpose guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
32 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (8x4 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1933 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
32 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (16x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1933 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 479 lbs / 217 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 300

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2.36" / 60 mm 505.25 ft / 154.00 m 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 1.97" / 50 mm 590.55 ft / 180.00 m 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length
(Upper belt represents side of hanger)

- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
1.18" / 30 mm 505.25 ft / 154.00 m 32.81 ft / 10.00 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.97" / 50 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 1.57" / 40 mm
2nd: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 0.79" / 20 mm
3rd: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.79" / 20 mm -

- Armour deck: 3.15" / 80 mm, Conning tower: 1.97" / 50 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 121,668 shp / 90,764 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 15,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 5,381 tons

Complement:
969 - 1,261

Cost:
£5.970 million / $23.878 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 60 tons, 0.2 %
Armour: 4,357 tons, 18.0 %
- Belts: 1,332 tons, 5.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 724 tons, 3.0 %
- Armament: 107 tons, 0.4 %
- Armour Deck: 2,158 tons, 8.9 %
- Conning Tower: 35 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 3,500 tons, 14.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,625 tons, 27.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,560 tons, 14.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 6,100 tons, 25.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
28,148 lbs / 12,768 Kg = 533.9 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 4.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
Metacentric height 3.5 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 18.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.04
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.56

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.548
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.85 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 30.79 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 45
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 35.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 49.21 ft / 15.00 m
- Forecastle (30 %): 49.21 ft / 15.00 m (16.40 ft / 5.00 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Stern: 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Average freeboard: 26.25 ft / 8.00 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 107.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 119.4 %
Waterplane Area: 37,041 Square feet or 3,441 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 135 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 103 lbs/sq ft or 504 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.35
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Commodore Green" (Oct 30th 2007, 12:27am)


2

Monday, October 29th 2007, 12:37pm

She looks stunning, if more than a little cramped below decks. I'm not sure on the supporting girder arrangement at the stern. The diagonals probably aren't needed as there won't be much load on the round down.

The autogyros will be quite hard to fit below decks. Folding rotors isn't particularly practicable.

3

Monday, October 29th 2007, 2:24pm

A great drawing and a nice little addition to the fleet. Freeboard looks very high but it is sleek.

4

Monday, October 29th 2007, 3:14pm

Interesting conversion
The superstructure seems extremely small.
Where is the mast? (for signal flags, etc and in later days radar)

5

Monday, October 29th 2007, 10:31pm

Thanks guys!!!

To answer a few raised points........
I think hanger space is ok, all aircraft have a minimum of 2 feet between them, and the workshop/storage areas are actually the same deck, not seperated by a bulkhead, but a sliding door, so it can be used for moving aircraft around. As you see her here, she is carrying a full combat load out, during normal ops, she would not carry the heavy attack planes on the lower deck, but would ship more of the fighters and torp bombers, freeing up a considerable amount of space

The upper deck has a head clearence of 12' or 4m, and the lower deck 24' or 6m

I had planned that the autogyros would live on the lifts when the deck was cleared for bad weather, etc, with the lifts lowered to the upper hanger deck, and a roller shutter pulled over the opening. The autogyros are to be used for liasion and rescue duties, so they need to be out first.

You may be right about the diagional struts under the deck, but it just "looked" wrong without them!

I wanted the freeboard as high as I could get it, to allow operations in marginal conditions. I am covering most of the globe after all!

As for the superstructure, DOH! forgot the mast.......be right back!

EDIT --- Got it!!----

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Commodore Green" (Oct 30th 2007, 12:30am)


6

Tuesday, October 30th 2007, 1:22am

I hate to run down such a pretty ship but...

max aircraft is:

Length x Beam (waterline) /70

which works out to 68 AC.

I made the same mistake on the French St, Cyr class.

7

Tuesday, October 30th 2007, 9:08am

It doesn't specify whether it's waterline at hull or bulges, I used bulges

8

Tuesday, October 30th 2007, 3:26pm

Hate to disappoint you but...

Gentlemen's Rule Number 6: "In the regard of simming a carrier that uses bulges, one should use the hull beam to calculate the number of planes (lenght x beam / 750 for imperial units) and not the beam over the bulges."

9

Tuesday, October 30th 2007, 4:44pm

Walters right, I think he's memorized ALL the rules. This one however even I remember.

10

Tuesday, October 30th 2007, 5:06pm

*Quickly closing the page with the Gentlemen's Rules on it*
Yes, that's true. I memorized ALL the rules. :D

I had a pretty tough time trying to fit 15 Kates, 15 Vals and 10 Zekes in the hangar aboard the Shokaku picture (now known as the Chitose class, the fastest carriers in the world). In the end they all fitted.

... so I took the picture of Magni, blew it up so it matched the scale of the Shokaku and compared those three Japanese planes with the three Danish planes... while your 72 planes might fit on there (don't see the autogyros though), I seriously doubt 72 of my planes will fit there, especially when you realize that the K-V-Zs have roughly the same length and wingspan as your biggest plane and that the wings of the Japanese planes do not fold entirely along the sides like the two Danish bomber types.
I did think it was nice to see the difference in size between the Danish fighter and the Zero. Midget! :D

11

Tuesday, October 30th 2007, 5:59pm

Quoted

What do you do with an Italian cruiser hull???


I was going to say something about limpet mines...

Hey, Mac. Good to see ya - nice design and pic.

12

Wednesday, October 31st 2007, 12:36am

With regard to the planes, they are to scale, representing wingspans of 30', 43', and 53', so the smallest is only 3' smaller than the zero, and now that I will have more room, maybe I'll just ship a bigger, nastier fighter, unlike Japan's "Flying Zippo's"!!!

As for fitting more Zeros in Walter, you run the country,so beat the designers until they develope a better wing folding system, instead of the pitiful "tip" fold that they had historically

Haven't got round to the autoguros yet....they will embark later!

I'll adjust accordingly on drawing and sim

ttfn

13

Wednesday, October 31st 2007, 2:49am

I've just noticed something.........

whenever someone points out an error or something about one of my designs, the re-do ends up with more guns!!!!



Magni, Denmark CV (Conversion from italian ACR hull) laid down 1933 (Engine 1934)

Displacement:
20,642 t light; 21,253 t standard; 24,245 t normal; 26,639 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
762.81 ft / 721.78 ft x 70.77 ft (Bulges 81.59 ft) x 26.25 ft (normal load)
232.50 m / 220.00 m x 21.57 m (Bulges 24.87 m) x 8.00 m

Airgroup:
20 Heavy Attack Aircraft
20 Dive Bombers
24 Fighters
2 Long range patrol aircraft
2 Autogyros

Armament:
8 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (4x2 guns), 52.72lbs / 23.91kg shells, 1933 Model
Dual purpose guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
48 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (12x4 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1933 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 8 raised mounts
32 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (16x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1933 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 504 lbs / 229 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 400

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2.36" / 60 mm 505.25 ft / 154.00 m 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 3.54" / 90 mm 590.55 ft / 180.00 m 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
(Upper belt simulates a 30mm armoured side to ALL exposed hanger walls)
Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
1.18" / 30 mm 505.25 ft / 154.00 m 32.81 ft / 10.00 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.97" / 50 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 1.57" / 40 mm
2nd: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 0.79" / 20 mm
3rd: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.79" / 20 mm -

- Armour deck: 3.94" / 100 mm
(30mm thick flight deck armour, 25mm floor armour on each hanger)
- Conning tower: 1.97" / 50 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 121,838 shp / 90,891 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 15,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 5,386 tons

Complement:
970 - 1,262

Cost:
£5.985 million / $23.941 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 63 tons, 0.3 %
Armour: 5,244 tons, 21.6 %
- Belts: 1,670 tons, 6.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 724 tons, 3.0 %
- Armament: 114 tons, 0.5 %
- Armour Deck: 2,700 tons, 11.1 %
- Conning Tower: 36 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 3,505 tons, 14.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,630 tons, 27.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,603 tons, 14.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 5,200 tons, 21.4 %
(Spare parts equivelant to 4 full aircraft accounted for in Misc weight (100 tons)


Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
29,964 lbs / 13,592 Kg = 568.3 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 4.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 3.7 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 17.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.04
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.56

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.549
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.85 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 30.79 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 45
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 35.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 49.21 ft / 15.00 m
- Forecastle (30 %): 49.21 ft / 15.00 m (16.40 ft / 5.00 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Stern: 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Average freeboard: 26.25 ft / 8.00 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 102.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 119.4 %
Waterplane Area: 37,076 Square feet or 3,444 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 135 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 103 lbs/sq ft or 504 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.35
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Commodore Green" (Oct 31st 2007, 9:32am)


14

Wednesday, October 31st 2007, 2:55am

So...if I say a few nice things, you'll take the guns off?

Still no mast. Ah, crap, more guns...

15

Wednesday, October 31st 2007, 9:34am

Quoted

Originally posted by The Rock Doctor
So...if I say a few nice things, you'll take the guns off?

Still no mast. Ah, crap, more guns...


Well, you could try....God loves a try-er.....personally, I couldn't eat a whole one!!!

Correct drawing now posted for your perusal!!

16

Wednesday, October 31st 2007, 8:11pm

Quoted

With regard to the planes, they are to scale, representing wingspans of 30', 43', and 53', so the smallest is only 3' smaller than the zero,

I took your original picture (not the new one) and blew it up (non Filipino style)... again... so it matches my Shokaku picture... again (as I did not save it). I blew it up to 157 percent (should be 156.5 percent; this results in your 100 feet sections being 130 pixels rather than 128 but I would think it is fairly accurate).

Measuring the number of pixels and dividing it with the magical number (1.27887 pixels/foot) gave me the next figures from your biggest plane to your smallest...

53.95 feet, 43.78 feet, 29.4 feet

Considering that I blew up the picture a little bit too much, that rounds the figures down to about 53, 43 and 29 feet.

The Zero has a wingspan of 39 feet and 4 inches (the one I used although actual span depends on which type you look at). So to me, the smallest plane has 10 feet less Wingspan than the Zero (and is 7 feet shorter than the Zero).

Quoted

now that I will have more room, maybe I'll just ship a bigger, nastier fighter, unlike Japan's "Flying Zippo's"!!!

Japan's next carrier fighter, the A6M Kyuujuuroku (= 96), will be fairly similar to the Zero but unfortunately for you not as flammable. Not sure if there will be a Zero...

17

Thursday, November 1st 2007, 1:39am

Walter, to save you the effort of resizing the new one, the planes are the same size as before.

As for the Zero wingspan, I got it wrong, I was looking at the land version and mis-typed, should have been 36' not 33'

18

Thursday, November 1st 2007, 12:05pm

I think the two twin engined types will probably be far too large to operate effectively from this size of carrier. Developing the light bomber (?) into a T.S.R. role would alleivate most of the problems and free up lots of space.

The fighter looks even more like a flying barrel than the F2A. Probably needs more fuselage length - but I'd have to see a bigger picture.

19

Friday, November 2nd 2007, 12:27pm

It was more of a case of "hmmm,i wonder?" that made me incloude them in the drawing, plus the fact that I had the drawing in my template, just to see if I could pull off a "Doolittle"!!!

It would more likely be a modified heavy attack platform (J10) that would be carried. it would be ideal for extended range ops, because you could shut down and feather the tractor engine, and cruise on just the pusher.