WesWorld

Well, given that CG wrote nothing about the iberian army or tanks, I'm designing it from scratch.

I'll start giving a brief history of the tanks Iberia has had until now, to then describe the tank that soon will enter service with the Iberian Army Tank Corps.

-Schneider CA-1:



24 units were purchased in September 16, 1921 so as to form a armored battery.

Some of them are still available and part of the armored forces of Iberia in training duties





-Renault FT-17:




This ubiquitous little tank also played a major part in the first steps of the Iberian armored units. After a first batch of 20 units was bought from france in 1919, the "Factoría de Armas, Explosivos y Municiones Santa Bárbara" built a further 85 under licence.

Most of this tanks are still in service, some of them in first line units, most of them relegated to training duty.




-Carro de Combate Trubia A4:



The 'Trubia' was based on the Renault FT-17 series of light tanks. It's superstructure was obviously different, but its suspension was basically the same. The tank was designed by army officer Captain Ruiz de Toledo, and built by Trubia in 1926 (hence the name). Successive improvements were made to the basic design until around 1931. Further developments of the 'Trubia' design resulted in the medium tank 'Landesa'. This tank was based on the commercial Landesa tractor (hence its name). Around 80 were built. The Trubia A4 was an improved design by Captain Ruiz de Toledo.

Combat weight: 6 tons
Armament: 40mm cannon + 2 x Hotchkiss MG or 3 x Hotchkiss MG
Armor: 7 - 15mm
Crew: 3
Engine: 4cyl, 75hp




Carro de combate Landesa:



A further developvement of the Trubia tank, this Infantry support AFV had the suspension and running gear of the commercial Landesa tractor. As a result the movility was insuficient and the resulting machine was deemed unsatisfactory. Only 5 prototypes were built. All of them are currently used for training duties.





Carro de combate Trubia modelo 1932-Trubia naval:




Still looking for a close infantry support tank, the Trubia company developed this little armored vehicle. CArrying a HMG or 37mm gun in the turret and a 45mm in the chassis, it weighs 5.5 tons only ,measures 1,70 m.width , 1,85 m height, 3,55 m lenght and is powered by a 75hp diesel engine. It's armor ranges from 15mm to 5mm in the weaker spots.

It carries a crew of three: one driving, one loading and shooting the chassis gun, and a commander who is also tasked with firing and reloading the turret HMG or gun.

In service since 1933 this tank's obvious size and weight advantages don't compensate for the weak traction and cramped fighting compartment, leaving the tank as a somewhat less than satisfactory vehicle.

60 have been built by the Trubia Arms and ammunition factory. All of them are in service in two tank brigades.






Carro de combate Verdeja, Modelo 1 and 2:



Designed by Artillery Commander D. Félix Verdeja Bardales, this tank is yet another try of the Iberian arms industry to build a small, yet sucessfull, tank. three prototipes were built in 1933 and after evaluation the model will receive an order in 1934.

With a whole new suspension and traction, the engine at the front right part of the hull and a small silouhette (only 1.75m high) the Verdeja has proven to be a very manerouverable tank in tests carried under operational conditions and probably will receive an order during 1934.

Of the three prototypes built, two carry the 40mm AT gun , 15-7mm armor, and a top speed of 45km/h on roads (25km/h cross-country).

The third is a heavier version with a stronger armor that ranges from 40 to 10mm, and a short 75mm gun. Being heavier its speed suffers but still has shown to have good cross-country capabilitites. As such the prodution model of this variant will be tasked with the infantry support role as Carro de Combate Verdeja Modelo 2.


Stats:

Carro de Combate Verdeja Modelo 1:

Specifications: Crew of 3: Commander/Loader/Driver
Dimensions (lenght/width/height): 5,1m/2,1m/1,75m
Armor: 7 - 15mm
Combat weight: 6 tons
Armament: 40mm AT Main Gun, 2 x 7.92 MG
Engine: 120hp Lincoln
Speed: 45km/h (road) 25km/h (cross-country).


Carro de Combate Verdeja Modelo 2:

Specifications: Crew of 3: Commander/Loader/Driver
Dimensions (lenght/width/height): 5,1m/2,1m/1,75m
Armor: 10 - 40mm
Combat weight: 7 tons
Armament: Short 75mm Main Gun, 2 x 7.92 MG
Engine: 120hp Lincoln
Speed: 40km/h (road) 19km/h (cross-country).

The weight seems a bit low for the Carro de combate Verdeja, Modelo 1 and 2, given the dimensions. The Modelo 1, with it's light armor, might be OK, but the Modelo 2 seems a bit light.

Also, have the Iberian ground forces adopted the 7.92mm vs their historic 7mm cartridge?

Quoted

Originally posted by Hrolf Hakonson
The weight seems a bit low for the Carro de combate Verdeja, Modelo 1 and 2, given the dimensions. The Modelo 1, with it's light armor, might be OK, but the Modelo 2 seems a bit light.

I might adjust the weight a bit for the Modelo 2.

The Modelo 1 is a copy of the historic model. The real Verdeja I was a prototype built in 1938 that when compared in field tests ran all over the T-26s the nationalists had captured during the civil war.

It never entered production because the spanish economy and industry was completely destroyed after the civil war...the tank itself had nothing superlative or special, it was just a good design, and it was as possible to do in 1933 as it was in 1938.

That, and the general trend of WW of introducing some weapons a tad too early, is why I've used it in 1934. To compensate for using it 5 years before, I've used a 40mm main gun for it (the real prototype used a 45mm) and reduced the top speed.

The weight of the Modelo 2 may be a bit low...8 tons maybe?. This ,unlike the Modelo 1, is a purely hipotetical model (the Verdeja I could mount a short 75mm gun instead of the 45mm AT gun, but had no extra armor.).

Quoted

Also, have the Iberian ground forces adopted the 7.92mm vs their historic 7mm cartridge?

not sure what you are talking about here...

Spain used a 7mm caliber for their main guns. The change to 7.92mm was caused IIRC by the Spanish Civil War and the use of German machineguns in the tanks.

You can either come up for an explanation for either using 7.92mm or 7mm, in reality it doesn't matter.

In regard to the Verdeja 2, as long as is close to the original prototype (a75mm infantry support vehicle with a shield) it should be all right. IMHO the vehicle's chassis is too light for a full turreted 75mm gun. Of course I could be wrong.

8 tons is possible, depending on how much of the armor is the 40mm thickness and how much is 10mm or close to ir. The historical Panzer II has about the same dimensions (a little taller, not quite as long) and has armor like the Modelo 1, and weighed 7.2 tons. The Ausf F, with similar armor to the Modelo 2, weighed 9.5 tons.


The machineguns on the tanks are listed as 7.92mm, while historically Spain used a 7mm cartridge for most purposes. (The French Hotchkiss MG was purchased by Spain in 7 x 57mm.) The historical tanks of this type probably used German MGs, which were chambered in 7.92 x 57mm, since it was post-Civil War.

Quoted

Originally posted by perdedor99
Spain used a 7mm caliber for their main guns. The change to 7.92mm was caused IIRC by the Spanish Civil War and the use of German machineguns in the tanks.

Ahhh I see. Well, then I'll stay with 7mm for the LMG caliber

Quoted

In regard to the Verdeja 2, as long as is close to the original prototype (a75mm infantry support vehicle with a shield)

Nope that would be something along the lines of the Verdeja Self-propelled prototype. I'm not looking to put a long 75mm barrel within the turret, but a low barrel (L12 or so) howitzer for support fire missions.

For that, the turret in the verdeja is big enough. The historic Verdeja model I could take it so...

Why only 60 Trubia 1932 since 1933? I can understand the design is lacking somewhat but it seems criminal to me the Iberian armored force is so weak. Peru has more modern tanks than Iberia as soon as the Lt-33 order is completed(around 150 tanks between Lt-33's and Vickers 6 tons)

It could be also a political decision if we use the decline of the Iberian fleet as an example. The Labor Government neglected the military to carry on their agenda perhaps?

Poland will start production of 14 7TP per month starting in January 1936. That should be around the same for Iberia IMHO.

Quoted

Originally posted by perdedor99
It could be also a political decision if we use the decline of the Iberian fleet as an example. The Labor Government neglected the military to carry on their agenda perhaps?.

You nailed it . I can't realistically put a government in place after a campaign run based on terrible defence bugdets and policies, and then come here and say that Iberia has built a 300 production run of a tank in little more than 18 monts .

Interesting designs you've managed to dig up RAM.

Interesting designs. What is the suspension fitted to them? I can't seem to make out how it works.

The lastest design will probably turn out too small and cramped although it has reasonable armament and armour. The frontal armour is nicely sloped. Any idea where the radiators are (if LC engine) or air vents? Its usually problematic to place them on front engined designs.

There are some clearer pictures over at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=86535, with clear views of the suspension.

Some very interesting pics http://mundosgm.com/smf/index.php?PHPSES…b4&topic=1879.0 here, too. Most of them are of the comparison tests run between a T-26 and the Verdeja-1.

There are a few pics of the Verdeja-2 light tank (an evolution designed in 1942).

During the trials, the Spanish designed tank showed a much better maneouverability and capability than the soviet designed tank, saving with easiness obstacles the T-26 couldn't deal with.

For 1938-40 it was a pretty good light tank design. It's sad it was never actually built, but with a ruined economy it was difficult, at the time, to undertake this kind of building program in Spain.


I'm lucky because I was able to see both tanks (and a magnific collection of tanks, t-26, Pz.I and StuG III included) from very close this last December. The Verdeja-1 chassis was used post-WW2 for a SP artillery project, the resulting vehicle is now on display (among many other tanks that have seen service in spain) in the El Goloso army base (near madrid), which some friends and me were allowed to visit.

The Verdeja-2 I had already beel close to before, as it is in display in the army base of Toledo -where I lived 4 years- and also was allowed to visit it some years ago.


The tank itself was pretty amazingly small. Think of a Pz-I with a 45mm gun and better mobility. We all were impressed with the small size of the Verdeja SP vehicle's chassis, and the Verdeja-2 was as small as the -1.

All in all a pretty neat little light tank.

A rather interesting leaf spring arrangement. It doesn't seem to have much travel in it and is mounted rather a bit too low for my liking. Probably limits cross-country speed somewhat. The pivoting pairs of wheels seem a good feature.

Some pics I took last december to compare sizes.

T-26. The guy standing there is around 1.75m tall.




Verdeja 75mm SP gun. The chassis is that of the Verdeja-1. The guy standing in front of it it's also around 1.75m tall.




PD: None of them guys is me

And now a bit off-topic...a couple pics I thought Red Admiral might like

Speaking of small armored vehicles...





PD: now yes, I'm in both pics

Quoted

PD: now yes, I'm in both pics

The one who looks like a spanish bandit with the beard IIRC?

I prefer the version of the CV.35 with the Solothurn 20mm anti-tank rifle, or the one with torsion bars and a 37mm gun...

Quoted

Originally posted by Red Admiral

The one who looks like a spanish bandit with the beard IIRC?

LOL yah, the bearded guy

Quoted

I prefer the version of the CV.35 with the Solothurn 20mm anti-tank rifle, or the one with torsion bars and a 37mm gun...

well, for sure were better than the L3...it must've been really claustrophobic to fight a battle inside one of this small steel coffins armed with a limited traverse twin light machinegun only...

Heres another tank design you could use, sorry no specs on the design as it seems to have been a prototype cooked up by repuplican forces durring the civil war.

There are literally dozens of ad-hoc armored fighting vehicles fielded by both sides (mostly the republicans) during the spanish Civil War...most of them were single-run "field-mod" vehicles armored with the armor plates available to those who modded them and armed with little more than a single MG.

The one you posted is one of them, That's the Sadurní armored tractor,a field modification carried on in BArcelona in the latest part of the civil war. which was little more than an armored personel carrier with only a machinegun...that's quite a limited capability as a fighting vehicle. As an armored personel carrier has some merit, tho. I may use it in that role in the future.


There were some weird "tanks" and "armored cars" during the SCW... Some more links for those interested (text is in spanish, though)

http://republicaomuerte.iespana.es/tiznaos.htm

http://republicaomuerte.iespana.es/otrosdos.htm

Heh, in the second link "Barbastro" seems like quite a lumbering beast akin to the Char B.