WesWorld

Quoted

Originally posted by thesmilingassassin
As for TB, sure the torpedo threats always there but the problem is you only have so much room in the hull for engines, barbettes ect. The upside is the TB would provide additional protection from torpedo attacks from enemy CL's.

True, but Springsharp doesn't report problems with room. The Adequate/Excellent ratings are right at my standards, as are the keeping and gunnery ratings. Beyond protection levels, those are the most important things to me, so as far as I'm concerned the ship is as close to perfectly balanced as it can be.

SS does report problems with room, just not specifically what the issue is.

Heres my version based on yours (using SSv2), first the original design then my attempt without a TB and additional armor and speed. Her torpedo resistance decreases from 4.7 to 3 but she gains an additional knot of speed and additional armor.

MIBN Amazonas (A), Brazilian Heavy Cruiser laid down 1939

Displacement:
15,141 t light; 15,819 t standard; 16,678 t normal; 17,366 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
681.70 ft / 668.00 ft x 74.00 ft x 24.50 ft (normal load)
207.78 m / 203.61 m x 22.56 m x 7.47 m

Armament:
9 - 9.00" / 229 mm guns (3x3 guns), 390.00lbs / 176.90kg shells, 1939 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
16 - 3.55" / 90.0 mm guns (8x2 guns), 25.00lbs / 11.34kg shells, 1939 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
32 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (8x4 guns), 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1939 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
32 - 0.54" / 13.7 mm guns (24 mounts), 0.08lbs / 0.04kg shells, 1939 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 16 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 3,977 lbs / 1,804 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
8 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7.75" / 197 mm 453.12 ft / 138.11 m 10.78 ft / 3.29 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 104 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.00" / 25 mm 453.12 ft / 138.11 m 23.86 ft / 7.27 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 7.75" / 197 mm 5.75" / 146 mm 7.75" / 197 mm
2nd: 2.95" / 75 mm 1.95" / 50 mm 2.95" / 75 mm

- Armour deck: 3.15" / 80 mm, Conning tower: 3.95" / 100 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 79,906 shp / 59,610 Kw = 30.50 kts
Range 8,500nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,547 tons

Complement:
733 - 953

Cost:
£7.098 million / $28.391 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 461 tons, 2.8 %
Armour: 5,032 tons, 30.2 %
- Belts: 1,577 tons, 9.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 400 tons, 2.4 %
- Armament: 1,036 tons, 6.2 %
- Armour Deck: 1,963 tons, 11.8 %
- Conning Tower: 56 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 2,162 tons, 13.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,286 tons, 43.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,538 tons, 9.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 200 tons, 1.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
29,399 lbs / 13,335 Kg = 80.7 x 9.0 " / 229 mm shells or 4.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.04
Metacentric height 3.5 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 16.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.66
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.31

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.482
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.03 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 29.80 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29.38 ft / 8.96 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Mid (50 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Stern: 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Average freeboard: 22.59 ft / 6.89 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 90.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 171.1 %
Waterplane Area: 33,686 Square feet or 3,130 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 126 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 141 lbs/sq ft or 690 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.01
- Longitudinal: 1.54
- Overall: 1.05
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily


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MIBN Amazonas (B), Brazilian Heavy Cruiser laid down 1939

Displacement:
15,141 t light; 15,819 t standard; 16,678 t normal; 17,366 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
681.70 ft / 668.00 ft x 74.00 ft x 24.50 ft (normal load)
207.78 m / 203.61 m x 22.56 m x 7.47 m

Armament:
9 - 9.00" / 229 mm guns (3x3 guns), 390.00lbs / 176.90kg shells, 1939 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
16 - 3.55" / 90.0 mm guns (8x2 guns), 25.00lbs / 11.34kg shells, 1939 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
32 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (8x4 guns), 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1939 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
32 - 0.54" / 13.7 mm guns (24 mounts), 0.08lbs / 0.04kg shells, 1939 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 16 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 3,977 lbs / 1,804 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
8 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 8.25" / 210 mm 453.12 ft / 138.11 m 10.78 ft / 3.29 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 104 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 7.75" / 197 mm 5.75" / 146 mm 7.75" / 197 mm
2nd: 2.95" / 75 mm 1.95" / 50 mm 2.95" / 75 mm

- Armour deck: 3.15" / 80 mm, Conning tower: 3.95" / 100 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 90,357 shp / 67,406 Kw = 31.50 kts
Range 8,500nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,547 tons

Complement:
733 - 953

Cost:
£7.328 million / $29.312 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 461 tons, 2.8 %
Armour: 4,734 tons, 28.4 %
- Belts: 1,679 tons, 10.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,036 tons, 6.2 %
- Armour Deck: 1,963 tons, 11.8 %
- Conning Tower: 56 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 2,445 tons, 14.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,301 tons, 43.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,538 tons, 9.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 200 tons, 1.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
26,846 lbs / 12,177 Kg = 73.7 x 9.0 " / 229 mm shells or 3.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.02
Metacentric height 3.3 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 17.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.67
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.23

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.482
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.03 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 29.80 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29.38 ft / 8.96 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Mid (50 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Stern: 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Average freeboard: 22.59 ft / 6.89 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 71.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 171.1 %
Waterplane Area: 33,686 Square feet or 3,130 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 123 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 142 lbs/sq ft or 691 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.00
- Longitudinal: 1.60
- Overall: 1.05
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Quoted

Originally posted by thesmilingassassin
SS does report problems with room, just not specifically what the issue is.

What I meant to say is not that it doesn't report problems with space period, it just doesn't report problems with my design. The workspace would read as cramped if space were a problem (like, unfortunately, it does with the Margay.) And while I appreciate your efforts, I'm not seeing any improvements so much as a different way of doing things.

Quoted

She's designed to kill lots of light cruisers in short order or to deal with a couple of treaty heavy cruisers.

I suggest a larger number of main battery guns. None of the light cruisers currently around can stand up to much in the way of 8" gunfire and at below 15000yds there are few heavy cruisers that can stand up to it either. Then theres always the fact that there are considerable amounts of unarmoured parts on cruisers. Go with 12x8" or 12x9" instead for greater hit probability.

Armour is probably slightly excessive at the moment. Secondary armament of 90mm guns is fine. Might want slightly greater speed.

Fyrwulf,

I just notived you´re guns will run out of ammo very soon. 150 shots/barrel for a light AA gun?

Quoted

Originally posted by HoOmAn
Fyrwulf,

I just notived you´re guns will run out of ammo very soon. 150 shots/barrel for a light AA gun?

What would you suggest, then? I'm honestly not sure what the rate of fire for 37mm guns would be.

Probably 10000 rounds per 37mm gun and 30000 per MG....?!

For the 90mm guns I´d take no less than 300 as I assume a ROF of 10RPM.

That's a little high, HOo, but when I've been playing with SS3 I've been using 600+ rounds per gun for 37mm weapons and 900-1000 rounds for 20mm weapons. Their shorter ranges reduce the time they'll be firing, compensating a little bit for their higher ROF. A fully-automatic 37mm weapon of the period can have a rate of fire of up to 300 rpm or so cyclic.

When not sure about the number of rounds, just visit the Navweaps site to get an idea.

Quoted

True, but Springsharp doesn't report problems with room. The Adequate/Excellent ratings are right at my standards, as are the keeping and gunnery ratings.

That may be so, but I think Wes is right. I seem to remember reading something in the Scharnhorst class book of Koops & Schmolke about them needing an angled TBH because of the narrow beam in order to make the system effective. Now that beam was 30 meters (about 98.5 feet) and I think that should be an indication how effective that TBH will be on the Amazonas (no matter what SS says) as I think that scale-wise, Amazonas has more space taken up by machinery, armament and stores than Scharnhorst.
I also think that even if under normal conditions there was enough space for an effective TDS on a 74 feet beam, that low BC will prevent it from being effective.

I would also think that a three shaft arrangement like on the S&G would take up less space than the 4 shaft arrangement that the Amazonas has. Except for the Caesar II design, those Italian ACRs use 2 shafts.

Note that those Italian ACRs use bulges to 'make' the TDS somewhat effective (about 5 feet on each side). Not sure how effective that method is in reality. Also, the 5 feet on each side is only true at the widest part of the ship...

Quoted

Note that those Italian ACRs use bulges to 'make' the TDS somewhat effective (about 5 feet on each side). Not sure how effective that method is in reality. Also, the 5 feet on each side is only true at the widest part of the ship...

Depth is about 4m which is probably enough to withstand 450mm torpedoes but not much else. On the smaller vessels the TDS is only alongside the machinery, there isn't enough space either side of the magazines.

The numbers given for rounds per gun are based on German practice in WW2. And it makes sense....

Assume a ROF of 1000RPM for a MG or 300-350RPM for a 37-40mm gun and you´ll end up with these numbers if your ship is meant to be prepared for 30mins of (sustained) anti-air duties.

Even that might not be eneough - check british usage of ammo at Crete. There some of their ship actually ran totally out of ammo which made it much easier for the Germans to sink some vessels.

So no, those numbers are hardly too high.

They are if you take approximate barrel life into account. What use are all your rounds when your barrel is no longer any good. The barrel life of the German guns mentioned below are given as 7,000-8,000 rounds.
What you say in regard to Germany's WW2 practice is visible I believe with the 3.7 cm/L83 (1.5") SK C/30 data (with the "later upped to 6,000 rounds" bit)

The German 37mm guns:

3.7 cm/57 (1.5") Flak M43
2,000 rounds

3.7 cm/69 (1.5") M42
2,000 rounds

3.7 cm/L83 (1.5") SK C/30
Bismarck: 2,000 rounds
Scharnhorst: 2,000 rounds (later upped to 6,000 rounds)
Deutschland: 2,000 rounds (later upped to 6,000 rounds)
Admiral Hipper and Prinz Eugen - single: 7,000 rounds
Admiral Hipper and Prinz Eugen - twin: 1,500 rounds
Königsberg, Liepzig and Nürnberg: 1,200 rounds
Z1 - Z47: 2,000 rounds

Regarding the MGs...
A few I found of similar caliber with given ammunition stowage:

Japan 13 mm/76 (0.52") Type 93
2,500 rounds

Italy 13.2 mm/75.7 (0.52") MG Model 1931
1,500 rounds

Quoted

Assume a ROF of 1000RPM for a MG or 300-350RPM for a 37-40mm gun and you´ll end up with these numbers if your ship is meant to be prepared for 30mins of (sustained) anti-air duties.

But its not going to be sustained firing. A 37/40mm has the range for some degree of sustained fire, which ammo supply will limit to around 120-150rpm. More normally light AA guns are going to fire a burst of maybe 20secs at most when a specific targets comes within range. Machine guns and 20mm cannons mounted on pedestals maybe 3-second bursts before the recoil makes it too erratic.

Ammunition stowage of 2000rounds is "normal" for WW2.