WesWorld

For starters, the Victorious class. Not, in fact, Treaty-busting, or if you want to be pedantic about that 26 tons, not very Treaty-busting.

HMS Victorious, Royal Navy Battlecruiser laid down 1934

Displacement:
38,099 t light; 40,026 t standard; 42,694 t normal; 44,828 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
811.47 ft / 806.00 ft x 106.00 ft x 31.80 ft (normal load)
247.33 m / 245.67 m x 32.31 m x 9.69 m

Armament:
9 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (3x3 guns), 1,938.00lbs / 879.06kg shells, 1934 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
20 - 4.70" / 119 mm guns (10x2 guns), 62.00lbs / 28.12kg shells, 1934 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
24 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns (12x2 guns), 6.00lbs / 2.72kg shells, 1934 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
48 - 1.59" / 40.5 mm guns (6x8 guns), 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1934 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
16 - 0.55" / 14.0 mm guns (4x4 guns), 0.08lbs / 0.04kg shells, 1934 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 18,923 lbs / 8,583 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 480.00 ft / 146.30 m 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 92 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.00" / 25 mm 480.00 ft / 146.30 m 28.00 ft / 8.53 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 7.00" / 178 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -

- Armour deck: 5.24" / 133 mm, Conning tower: 6.00" / 152 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 134,994 shp / 100,706 Kw = 30.24 kts
Range 8,000nm at 16.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,802 tons

Complement:
1,484 - 1,930

Cost:
£17.700 million / $70.798 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,057 tons, 4.8 %
Armour: 14,680 tons, 34.4 %
- Belts: 5,857 tons, 13.7 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 497 tons, 1.2 %
- Armament: 2,150 tons, 5.0 %
- Armour Deck: 6,018 tons, 14.1 %
- Conning Tower: 158 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 3,884 tons, 9.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 17,328 tons, 40.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,595 tons, 10.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 0.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
65,631 lbs / 29,770 Kg = 38.9 x 15.0 " / 381 mm shells or 9.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 6.7 ft / 2.0 m
Roll period: 17.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.75
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.23

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.550
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.60 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 32.94 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 31.00 ft / 9.45 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Mid (70 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Stern: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Average freeboard: 23.65 ft / 7.21 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 82.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 183.9 %
Waterplane Area: 62,075 Square feet or 5,767 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 203 lbs/sq ft or 993 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.37
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Now, the Swiftsure class. Basically a slightly-modified Ark Royal.

HMS Swiftsure, Royal Navy Aircraft Carrier laid down 1934

Displacement:
21,243 t light; 22,060 t standard; 24,803 t normal; 26,998 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
691.38 ft / 685.00 ft x 94.75 ft x 27.75 ft (normal load)
210.73 m / 208.79 m x 28.88 m x 8.46 m

Armament:
16 - 4.70" / 119 mm guns (8x2 guns), 62.00lbs / 28.12kg shells, 1934 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side ends, evenly spread
48 - 1.59" / 40.5 mm guns (6x8 guns), 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1934 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
32 - 0.55" / 14.0 mm guns (16x2 guns), 0.08lbs / 0.04kg shells, 1934 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side ends, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 1,091 lbs / 495 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 500

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.00" / 76 mm 485.00 ft / 147.83 m 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 109 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.75" / 44 mm 485.00 ft / 147.83 m 26.00 ft / 7.92 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
2nd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -

- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 122,009 shp / 91,019 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 16.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,939 tons

Complement:
987 - 1,284

Cost:
£6.542 million / $26.168 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 116 tons, 0.5 %
Armour: 4,415 tons, 17.8 %
- Belts: 980 tons, 3.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 816 tons, 3.3 %
- Armament: 73 tons, 0.3 %
- Armour Deck: 2,455 tons, 9.9 %
- Conning Tower: 92 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 3,510 tons, 14.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,572 tons, 30.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,561 tons, 14.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 5,629 tons, 22.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
37,210 lbs / 16,878 Kg = 716.8 x 4.7 " / 119 mm shells or 5.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 5.6 ft / 1.7 m
Roll period: 16.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.06
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.23

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.482
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.23 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 30.77 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Mid (25 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Stern: 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Average freeboard: 23.78 ft / 7.25 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 96.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 196.7 %
Waterplane Area: 44,230 Square feet or 4,109 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 138 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 121 lbs/sq ft or 590 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.45
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Upper hangar deck: 568' x 60' x 16'; 34 aircraft carried
Lower hangar deck: 452' x 60' x 16'; 26 aircraft carried
12 spare aircraft carried disassembled for attrition replacement.

The L-class cruisers, designed to be more effective in ship-to-ship combat than earlier designs at the expense of some speed. And the 6pdr QF guns, which will be found to be a duff idea as soon as they are actually tried at sea.

L Class, United Kingdom Light Cruiser laid down 1934

Displacement:
7,524 t light; 7,924 t standard; 9,466 t normal; 10,700 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
568.65 ft / 557.00 ft x 62.00 ft x 19.50 ft (normal load)
173.32 m / 169.77 m x 18.90 m x 5.94 m

Armament:
12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (4x3 guns), 112.00lbs / 50.80kg shells, 1934 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 3.70" / 94.0 mm guns (6x2 guns), 28.00lbs / 12.70kg shells, 1934 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
8 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns in single mounts, 6.00lbs / 2.72kg shells, 1934 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
16 - 1.59" / 40.5 mm guns (4x4 guns), 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1934 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
24 - 0.55" / 14.0 mm guns (6x4 guns), 0.08lbs / 0.04kg shells, 1934 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,762 lbs / 799 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
8 - 24.5" / 622.3 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2.50" / 64 mm 415.00 ft / 126.49 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 115 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 3.00" / 76 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
3rd: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
4th: 0.50" / 13 mm - -

- Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 67,495 shp / 50,351 Kw = 31.42 kts
Range 12,000nm at 16.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,776 tons

Complement:
479 - 623

Cost:
£3.493 million / $13.972 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 210 tons, 2.2 %
Armour: 1,276 tons, 13.5 %
- Belts: 426 tons, 4.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 191 tons, 2.0 %
- Armour Deck: 659 tons, 7.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 1,942 tons, 20.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,947 tons, 41.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,942 tons, 20.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 1.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
15,271 lbs / 6,927 Kg = 141.4 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 1.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.18
Metacentric height 3.3 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 14.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 74 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.50
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.35

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.492
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.98 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 27.19 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 55
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 32.00 ft / 9.75 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Mid (58 %): 25.00 ft / 7.62 m (17.00 ft / 5.18 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Stern: 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Average freeboard: 22.51 ft / 6.86 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 86.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 162.4 %
Waterplane Area: 23,751 Square feet or 2,207 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 135 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 102 lbs/sq ft or 499 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 2.05
- Overall: 1.01
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Misc. Weight includes:

Provision for 3 aircraft (only two usually carried)
8 reload torpedoes and handling gear

And the P Class submarines. Intended to replace the H Class and R Class.

P Class, Royal Navy Submarine laid down 1933

Displacement:
635 t light; 650 t standard; 708 t normal; 755 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
170.00 ft / 170.00 ft x 19.70 ft x 12.00 ft (normal load)
51.82 m / 51.82 m x 6.00 m x 3.66 m

Armament:
1 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 12.00lbs / 5.44kg shells, 1933 Model
Anti-aircraft gun in deck mount
on centreline amidships
2 - 0.55" / 14.0 mm guns (1x2 guns), 0.08lbs / 0.04kg shells, 1933 Model
Machine guns in deck mount
on centreline amidships
Weight of broadside 12 lbs / 6 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
4 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion generators plus batteries,
Electric motors, 1 shaft, 1,796 shp / 1,340 Kw = 16.00 kts
Range 5,500nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 105 tons

Complement:
68 - 89

Cost:
£0.146 million / $0.586 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 52 tons, 7.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 423 tons, 59.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 73 tons, 10.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 158 tons, 22.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
344 lbs / 156 Kg = 25.5 x 3.0 " / 76 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.05
Metacentric height 0.5 ft / 0.1 m
Roll period: 11.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 0 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.617
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.63 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 13.04 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Stern: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Average freeboard: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 102.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 0.0 %
Waterplane Area: 2,441 Square feet or 227 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 256 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 119 lbs/sq ft or 580 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 4.48
- Longitudinal: 2.52
- Overall: 2.91
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is extremely poor
Ship has quick, lively roll, not a steady gun platform
Caution: Lacks seaworthiness - very limited seakeeping ability

Standard displacement: 500 tons (excluding ballast water)
Light displacement: 484 tons (excluding ballast water)

Diving depth 291 feet (operational)

Quoted

For starters, the Victorious class. Not, in fact, Treaty-busting

So why the 59 months construction time? The UK expecting their workers to strike for a year or so?

Why do the Swiftsure CVs have thicker torpedo bulkheads than the Victorious Bcs? Presumably the torpedo threat will be similar? And it's your vessel, but I never like such thin main barbettes.


I'm also curious about the P-class, at 500 tons standard they will still count as Type As. With a 22 hull limit, the UK could easily make an all-1190ts fleet of Type As and still stay in the treaty.

Ah, beggar. I'd somehow got it into my head that the limit for Type B was 500 tons and under. And now I've got forty of the bloody things.

*grumbles*

On the torpedo bulkhead thing, I merely took an inconsistent approach to the increases in available strength over their predecessors. But the Swiftsures are rather narrower than the Victoriouses, so that might be some justification for it.

Concerning the thin barbettes, I'm not too sure about that, either. I think it's been inherited from the Invincibles somewhere down the line.

I'm not having a good day, am I? I think I'd best get some sleep, and maybe I'll be inspired in the morning.

RLBH,

IMHO, your battlecruiser is too well armoured and too slow to be considered as such in the truest sense of the type. Falling into the same category as Richelieu and Vttorio Veneto she's a very nice battleship design though.

Here's my take, if I may, on a true-blue mid to late 30's British battlecruiser as she would have appeared around 1944:



The aircraft hangar and catapult were deliberately kept as inconspicuous as possible. Quad AA mountings were used in place of octuples to provide a greater number of positions for better all-round close range defence/revenge.

The stepped quarterdeck was used primarily as a weight-saving measure, but also, to eliminate the bathtub look of the hull. Old fashioned???

The Victorious-class ships are following closely in the mold of the Invincible and St. Vincent class ships, more fast battleship than Fisher-type battlecruiser. The barbette armor and the torpedo buklhead are a bit ligh, as already noted, but there's not a lot of "fat" on the ship to remove to improve those areas.

I like the 6-pounder "dead end" that's being explored here.

The KGVs were, IIRC, called 'fully-armoured battlecruisers', thought that might've been Vanguard. The RN thinking is that the QEs and Rs are battleships, and these ships are far faster, therefore they must be battlecruisers.

Someone needs to tell them that Fisher is dead...

One post-Treaty capital ship option is about a 2,000 ton 'growth' of the V-class to get acceptable protection against 15" shellfire everywhere. Another is a 15,000 ton 'growth' to get acceptable protection against the 16.5" guns she carries.

I'm not quite sure why you're keen on the 16.5" gun. It offers no real increase in capability over the 16" but weighs more.

An acceptable ship with 16.5" guns (or 16" guns) is possible on 42000tons. You want 30/31knts speed and then maybe 45000tons.

Nor am I especially sure why I've gone for the 16.5" gun. Still, I've got it now.

I suspect the fact that the last two classes of 'battlecruiser' are based on the Invincibles explains the poor performance. It's probably appropriate to do a clean-sheet design for any post-Treaty construction.