WesWorld

[SIZE=5]Report on Italian Naval Construction Q3 1933[/SIZE]

Available Factories; 12 producing 12,000tons of warship material, 10 producing 1.0IP


[SIZE=4]Ships under construction[/SIZE]
[SIZE=1]
Ship Name:Augusto
Laid down:01/01/32 Completion:10/01/34 Launched:23/10/32
Amount built:13500 Amount added:2000 Amount Needed:176

Ship Name:Tiberio
Laid down:01/01/32 Completion:10/01/34 Launched:23/10/32
Amount built:13500 Amount added:2000 Amount Needed:176

Ship Name:Caligola
Laid down:01/01/32 Completion:10/01/34 Launched:23/10/32
Amount built:13500 Amount added:0 Amount Needed:2176

Ship Name:Claudio
Laid down:01/01/33 Completion:25/01/35 Launched:29/10/32
Amount built:6000 Amount added:0 Amount Needed:10166

Ship Name:Nerone
Laid down:01/01/33 Completion:25/01/35 Launched:29/10/32
Amount built:6000 Amount added:0 Amount Needed:10166

Ship Name:San Calepodio
Laid down:01/07/32 Completion:15/10/33 Launched:05/01/33
Amount built:4500 Amount added:0 Amount Needed:2400

Ship Name:San Calimero
Laid down:01/07/32 Completion:15/10/33 Launched:05/01/33
Amount built:4000 Amount added:0 Amount Needed:2900

Ship Name:FloatingDock No.1
Laid down:01/01/33 Completion:21/12/33 Launched:22/05/33
Amount built:1000 Amount added:1000 Amount Needed:800

Ship Name:FloatingDock No.2
Laid down:01/01/33 Completion:21/12/33 Launched:22/05/33
Amount built:1000 Amount added:1000 Amount Needed:800

Ship Name:FloatingDock No.3
Laid down:01/01/33 Completion:09/12/33 Launched:17/05/33
Amount built:2406 Amount added:0 Amount Needed:0

Ship Name:Impavido Class x 4
Laid down:01/07/33 Completion:29/05/34 Launched:11/11/33
Amount built:0 Amount added:0 Amount Needed:2096

Ship Name:Soldati Class x 2
Laid down:01/01/33 Completion:12/11/33 Launched:07/05/33
Amount built:1549 Amount added:0 Amount Needed:0

Ship Name:Soldati Class x 2
Laid down:01/01/33 Completion:12/11/33 Launched:07/05/33
Amount built:0 Amount added:1549 Amount Needed:0

Ship Name:Diana Class x 4
Laid down:01/01/33 Completion:13/11/34 Launched:07/05/32
Amount built:1538 Amount added:0 Amount Needed:0

Ship Name:Perla Class x 10
Laid down:01/07/33 Completion:08/04/34 Launched:21/10/33
Amount built:0 Amount added:0 Amount Needed:375

Ship Name:Adua Class x 10
Laid down:01/10/32 Completion:08/07/32 Launched:21/01/32
Amount built:0 Amount added:355 Amount Needed:0



OTO La Spezia
1 Type 3 Slipway FloatingDock No.1
1 Type 3 Slipway
1 Type 3 Drydock
1 Type 3 Drydock
1 Type 1 Slipway Impavido Class
1 Type 1 Drydock Perla Class

Augusto
San Calepodio
Soldati Class

Orlando Taranto
1 Type 4 Slipway
1 Type 4 Drydock
1 Type 3 Slipway FloatingDock No.2
1 Type 3 Drydock
1 Type 3 Drydock
1 Type 1 Slipway Impavido Class
1 Type 1 Drydock Perla Class

San Calimero
Soldati Class

Napoli di Castellammare
1 Type 3 Slipway FloatingDock No.3
1 Type 3 Drydock
1 Type 1 Slipway Impavido Class
1 Type 1 Drydock Perla Class

Soldati Class

Marghera Fincantieri, Venezia
1 Type 3 Slipway Perla Class
1 Type 3 Slipway Perla Class
1 Type 3 Drydock
1 Type 1 Slipway Impavido Class
1 Type 1 Drydock Perla Class

Tiberio
Soldati Class

CRDA Trieste
1 Type 4 slipway Claudio
1 Type 4 slipway Nerone

Caligola

Messina di Castellammare
1 Type 4 Drydock
1 Type 3 Slipway Perla Class
1 Type 3 Slipway Perla Class
1 Type 3 Drydock
1 Type 1 Slipway Perla Class

Diana Class
Diana Class

Fincantieri Cagliari
Type 3 Drydock
Type 1 Drydock Perla Class

[/SIZE]

12 factories produce 12.000t of material
2.000t transferred from Ethiopia
2.800t transferred from Iberia
92t used from stockpile
15.492tons of material available in total

10xMAS700 built 600tons
Incrociatore Sperimentale Quarto Partial Refit 418tons
San Pietro, Gregorio and Sylvestro complete trials

13.248tons of material needed
New stockpile of 2092tons
4x Triple 381mm turrets in storage
3x Triple 203mm turrets in storage

1.0IP spent on Factory No.23, requires 7.0IP to complete

[size=3]Fleet Strength[/size]
BB. 7(0)+0
CV.6(0)+0
ACR. 3(0)+5
CA. 3(0)+0
CL. 28(1)+2
CDA. 4(0)+0
DD. 57(0)+8
TB. 33(0)+0
Submarines. a) 22(0)+0
b) 47(0)+20
Escorts. 49(0)+4
AS. 7(0)+0
MAS. 275(0)+10

[SIZE=5]Ethiopia Q3 1933[/SIZE]

2 Factories produce 2.000tons of warship materials
[size=1]
Massawa
1 Type 3 Drydock
1 Type 1 Slipway
1 Type 1 Drydock

Diana Class
Diana Class

Mogadishu
1 Type 1 Drydock
[/size]

2.000t transferred to Italy

[size=3]Fleet Strength[/size]
1(0)+0 Cruisers
2(0)+0 Coastal Defence ships
20 MAS

You know, I was just looking at the new version of the Saint design... there are two minor flaws in the new sim. The original ship design had a 86,000 shp powerplant but the new one has 82,919 shp. Machinery goes from 2,572 tons to 2,480 tons. Also your bunker changes while it should remain the same.
So looking at it, I would guess that the design should be more like this. Machinery at 2,572 tons and with 86,000 shp output and the maximum bunker at 3,663 tons.

Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1931

Displacement:
13,006 t light; 13,555 t standard; 15,590 t normal; 17,218 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
638.16 ft / 623.36 ft x 65.62 ft (Bulges 75.69 ft) x 23.13 ft (normal load)
194.51 m / 190.00 m x 20.00 m (Bulges 23.07 m) x 7.05 m

Armament:
9 - 7.99" / 203 mm guns (3x3 guns), 291.01lbs / 132.00kg shells, 1931 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
4 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns (2x2 guns), 33.07lbs / 15.00kg shells, 1931 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all forward
16 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (4x4 guns), 1.83lbs / 0.83kg shells, 1931 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all forward, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns in single mounts, 0.53lbs / 0.24kg shells, 1931 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all forward
Weight of broadside 2,785 lbs / 1,263 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
16 - 23.6" / 600 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 7.28" / 185 mm 433.07 ft / 132.00 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 0.79" / 20 mm 65.62 ft / 20.00 m 8.20 ft / 2.50 m
Main Belt covers 107 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
1.57" / 40 mm 305.12 ft / 93.00 m 32.81 ft / 10.00 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 7.48" / 190 mm 4.92" / 125 mm 5.91" / 150 mm
2nd: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.79" / 20 mm -
3rd: 0.39" / 10 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -

- Armour deck: 2.95" / 75 mm, Conning tower: 7.48" / 190 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 86,000 shp / 64,156 Kw = 31.16 kts
Range 6,788nm at 20.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,663 tons

Complement:
696 - 906

Cost:
£4.679 million / $18.716 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 306 tons, 2.0 %
Armour: 4,199 tons, 26.9 %
- Belts: 1,315 tons, 8.4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 583 tons, 3.7 %
- Armament: 652 tons, 4.2 %
- Armour Deck: 1,548 tons, 9.9 %
- Conning Tower: 101 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 2,572 tons, 16.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,659 tons, 36.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,584 tons, 16.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 270 tons, 1.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
25,245 lbs / 11,451 Kg = 98.9 x 8.0 " / 203 mm shells or 4.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.24
Metacentric height 3.9 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 16.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 58 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.33
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.16

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.500
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.24 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 28.95 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 31.66 ft / 9.65 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 23.46 ft / 7.15 m
- Mid (70 %): 23.46 ft / 7.15 m (15.26 ft / 4.65 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 15.26 ft / 4.65 m
- Stern: 15.26 ft / 4.65 m
- Average freeboard: 21.65 ft / 6.60 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 103.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 112.9 %
Waterplane Area: 28,340 Square feet or 2,633 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 129 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 123 lbs/sq ft or 598 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.38
- Overall: 0.97
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate


Now I mentioned to you that I myself had tried to get it down to the proper displacement and that I couldn't quite get there. That was because I stuck with the 16,585 t normal and then subtracted all the stuff I removed from the design's standard displacement. I removed the X triple, all but two twin 100mm turrets, the 20mm armor for the TTs and most of the miscellaneous weights. That got me down to 13,900 tons or so. I'll take a look and see if I can redo that stuff.

Time to fiddle again. shp should be the same. Should be able to go further with the same bunkerage.

Edit - done it.

Warning! Boring stuff ahead!
If you want to stay awake, don't read it...


Funny thing is that SS says it can be done like that but when I do the next, I do not get to the desired displacement.

Removed (including stuff you'd probably want to keep on the ship):
1x triple 203mm turret = 287 tons
5x twin 100mm turrets = 59 tons
4x quad 37mm mounts = 46 tons
2x planes+ crane/cat = 75 tons
CIC = 50 tons
25mm deck over TTs = 40 tons
20mm side shutters TTs = 31 tons
Torpedoes = 48 tons

Total weight lost = 636 tons
Current displacement (standard) = 13914 tons
So with the stuff I removed (more than you removed with the sim) I am still some 270 tons heavier than the new sim...

... and I just realized what is causing it: Hull, fittings & equipment. That is the one thing that changes when you alter the draught of the ship and that is why using my way you cannot get to the proper displacement without ditching additional stuff.

Hull, fittings & equipment original design with absolutely nothing on it: 16,253 tons.
Hull, fittings & equipment new version with absolutely nothing on it: 15,365 tons.
That's a difference of 888 tons.
It's minute but storages go from 332 tons to 314 tons. All little bits help.
In the sim, Hull, fittings & equipment goes from 6,166 tons to 5,829 tons, so a loss of 337 tons.

Inproper SS way...
1x triple 203mm turret = 287 tons
5x twin 100mm turrets = 59 tons
misc weight = 120 tons
ship hull loss = 337 tons
storage loss = 18

Total lost = 821 tons.
Current displacement = 13,729 tons.

Now I am still off by 86 tons... but so far, I haven't looked at the change of the ammuntion. Removing the 203mm turret and those 100mm turrets frees up another 108 tons from the removed ammunition. So...

Final displacement = 13,621 tons.
The difference of a mere 22 tons compared to the 13,643 t of the SS sim. Adding that 22 tons to the misc weight will result in the HS remaining at 1.00 (which is what I expected when looking at the data above).

I'm curious where the costs for removing all this stuff is covered? Under the infrastructure rules, a change to a 195mm+ battery not involving barbette alterations is a 50% refit. In this case, though, since the refit is only removing the turret and nothing is going in in it's place, the cost seems too high, should probably be 25% or so.

None because it is just being removed so ship goes up, displacement goes down.

Not sure why the hull weight changes.

Quoted

Originally posted by Red Admiral
None because it is just being removed so ship goes up, displacement goes down.

Is this part in response to my question?

The "none" bit was.

So Italy gets a free refit? Why is that?

But its not a refit. The bits being removed have already been payed for.

The work to remove and store all those weapons and the armor plates wasn't paid for. And you can turn around and use those weapons or armor plates on later vessels for free. Nowehere in the rules does it say that refits that only remove things are free.

But only the materials that go into the ship are "paid" for. Labour costs etc. don't figure

Wouldn't a ship have additional framing around the barbette (as well as barbette armor), which would remain when the turret is removed. So wouldnt it be expected for the hull weights to be different between a new built ship with 3 barbettes and one with 3 full and one empty? Thus why Roo's way of deleting items results in a different result than a new SIM? Or am I misunderstanding something ?

Quoted

Originally posted by Red Admiral
But only the materials that go into the ship are "paid" for. Labour costs etc. don't figure

That's true for construction, not for refits. Look at the cost of replacing torpedo tubes, for instance. It's 15% of the hull cost if you want to remove 1 or more 500mm torpedo tubes and replace them with 533mm tubes. Doesn't matter how many tubes you're replacing, doesn't matter how big the replacement tubes are or how many of them there are, it's a 15% cost.

Quoted

Originally posted by Hrolf Hakonson
The work to remove and store all those weapons and the armor plates wasn't paid for. And you can turn around and use those weapons or armor plates on later vessels for free. Nowehere in the rules does it say that refits that only remove things are free.

I would say it's more comparable to a limited scrapping than a refit. We don't "pay" during the course of scrapping as they disassemble the warship, and then suddenly gain it back in recycling.

We only seem to track factory output & material, labor is apparently close to free.

Quoted

Originally posted by Kaiser Kirk
Wouldn't a ship have additional framing around the barbette (as well as barbette armor), which would remain when the turret is removed.

Quite possibly. I added the weight of X barbette as misc. weight. Maybe it would be better to account for it by simply thickening the remaining barbette armour until the correct weight is reached.

Actually I kept it simple and removed all armor (including barbette) of the X-turret, but yes, barbette armor of X-turret should still be there. Let's see... barbette armor is... 100 tons for a single 203mm triple turret, superfiring.

What exacly where the changes? Can we see a before and after SS2?

"I would say it's more comparable to a limited scrapping than a refit. We don't "pay" during the course of scrapping as they disassemble the warship, and then suddenly gain it back in recycling."

And when, in the near future, he puts all the stuff back, what will it cost to do that?

Well the parallel I'm drawing is that when I go to scrap the old Ijelsijk class BCs, no one is going to claim that I need to pay tonnage or IPs to remove the turrets and put them in storage.

RA has- I believe, already "paid" the material cost for these items he and Roo are showing deleted, and it appears that the route taken will essentially be removing these things and putting them in storage, which seems quite similar to the scrapping process.

Presuming he's not doing things like de-armoring barbettes, all he should have to do is plate over the space, which at most would be 5% for minor superstructure work, not one of the higher refits. Or at least that appears logical to me