WesWorld

24 April 1933: Hyderabad

Foreign Minister Jal Kadharni examined the documents that had been handed to him earlier in the day by the German ambassador. He sighed and passed them over to the Minister of Defence, Karan Chidambaram, who was still settling into the new post, his predecessor having been quietly dismissed a few weeks earlier. Chidambaram leafed through the sheets and returned them.

"Is the Samraja returning right away?", he asked.

"Not until the twenty-seventh", Kadharni replied. "He hasn't been up to Agra to see his parents for some time now. And it's not as if the matter will come to a head that quickly."

Chidambaram nodded.. "I can't argue with that. The boy's been quite busy since he took the throne. A little break will do him wonders."

"It may be the last one he gets for some time", Kadharni replied. "So, based on what we've just read, what's your take?"

The defence minister shrugged. "It's the end of Cleito", he said simply.

"It doesn't worry you?", Kadharni asked.

"Not especially. I've long figured it'd end this way sooner or later. Cheating, recriminations, innuendo and lies."

"Still...", Kadharni began. He frowned. "How does the navy feel about this?"

"Admirals Paswan and Epp aren't pleased with the timing, but they reckon they can adapt. It does opens up more options in that endless debate they have about cruisers."

"They're not worried about competing with unrestricted Italy, Netherlands, or Britain?"

"Those three will be competing with Atlantis, France, Russia, Japan, the Afrikanners, and others, all at the same time", Chidambaram observed. "Our best option is not to compete at all. Focus on key missions that can be done in an affordable manner. Ironically, we can do that more effectively in some cases without a treaty. Which do you think will influence Dutch behaviour more - three full-sized coastal defence battleships, or two dozen ocean-going submarines?"

Kadharni grimaced. "So if the Samraja polls us, you're going to vote against a new treaty?"

Chidambaram nodded. "Absolutely. Why should we constrain ourselves with rules other nations see fit to break on a whim?"



OOC: the constant need to go back and replace little squares with apostrophes and quotations is really pissing me off.

6 May 1933: Hyderabad

Samraja Brashkar II, freshly returned from Agra, asked, "Gentlemen? Update me on the international situation, if you will."

"Certainly, Sire", Foreign Minister Jal Kadharni replied. "As you'll be aware from the briefing notes, there have been allegations that Italy is or will be out-of-compliance with the Cleito Treaty in multiple respects."

"How so?'

"The initial concern is that their three San Pietro class cruisers are over-sized for class A cruisers, and thus must count as capital ships. This would be acceptable if they were to replace the three oldest Italian battleships in service, but so far, they haven't."

Brashkar asked, "Did I not see something in an Italian paper about those ships still fitting out? If so, I recall there was some discussion at Cowes about when a ship is considered completed."

"This is a tricky point, as there are some nations that consider a ship completed following the conclusion of its trials", Minister Chidambaram confirmed with a sigh. "Others, like ourselves, have been under the impression that the completion date was the date in which substantial construction ended and trials commenced. The treaty is naturally silent on the matter. So if the Italians have taken the former viewpoint, from their own perspective at least, they're still in compliance."

"As is the case if the San Pietros do qualify as class A cruisers", Kadharni added.

"Do they?", Brashkar inquired.

"We don't know. Based on the waterline dimensions, they might, but SPEARFISH indicates considerable bulging below the waterline that would increase displacement."

"If they are oversized, can we prove it?"

"Not without a detailed examination, which the Italians are not compelled to allow. A consequence of the lack of interest in enforcement measures that your mother raised at Copenhavn in 1929."

"I remember that", Brashkar murmured. "So, if the San Pietros are thirteen thousand tonnes, what then?"

"Then their next class, the Agustos, will replace their three oldest battleships in legal fashion, and their newest class, the Claudios, will replace their Duilio class ships. Leaving them with, in total, six large heavy cruisers, five small capital ships, and three battleships. All of it legal, with room for a seventh heavy cruiser and an additional capital ship in the future."

"Our note to Atlantis mentions Italy being out of compliance now, rather than possibly becoming out of compliance", Brashkar noted, eying Kadharni. "I would have thought the wording would be more careful, given our experience with the Atlantean/Canadian deal last year."

Kadharni frowned. "Consensus from our experts is that they are in violation with the Popes. The wording is accurate."

"The consensus is not provable - therefore, the wording is ill-chosen", Brashkar responded. "At least if it does prove to inappropriate wording there are other nations with which to share the heat. Now, what is happening overseas?"

"France, Germany, and Russia are acting in a concerted fashion, and we have indications that Nordmark may follow suit, which could have an interesting effect on European politics. Herr Stresemann may elaborate during his visit later in the month. The British, Americans, Iberians, Dutch, and South Africans have all been quiet on the matter thus far. Mass exodus from the treaty obviously affects German investments previously announced for next year, so the Navy has been pruning its plans accordingly."

"On that note - Minister?", Brashkar asked, turning to Chidambaram.

The Defence Minister began, "Samraja, the Bharatiya Nau Sena has settled on what we're calling 'Plan Indigo' for the next three years. This plan addresses some fundamental needs that exist regardless of Cleito's status, and allow us to address a possible treaty failure through resource re-allocation. In the short term, our most effective response to perceived threats in the western Indian Ocean is to ensure the two aircraft carriers currently under construction have strong support forces. This includes additional cruiser escorts, an expanded fleet train, and a larger paritraataa force to protect the fleet train while leaving our destroyers free for fleet duties. This will be supported through redeployment of the Shah Jahan to Mumbai, and increased infrastructure development at Mumbai."

"Can Shah Jahan operate with the aircraft carriers effectively?", Brashkar asked.

"At most speeds, she can, and her operating range is adequate. We are, however, going to build another Ahmadabad class cruiser to serve as her escort, allowing us to keep all four of the shorter-legged Agras with Akbar, Jahangir, and Urumi in the east."

"Are there any treaty-busting ships in the plan?"

"For 1934, we have two new type A submarines that would violate our limits", Chidambaram confirmed. "If the treaty remains in effect, these resources can be re-allocated to identified amphibious squadron requirements."

"Send me a briefing note. My apologies, gentlemen - I must meet with your colleague from Health to discuss El Derretir now."

Excellent. In RL it would be basically impossible to tell how large the ships were. The Zaras were some 1500tons overweight, this was only discovered when Gorizia was damaged and had to come into Gibraltar for repairs allowing the RN a look at her hull.

Quoted

"Then their next class, the Agustos, will replace their three oldest battleships in legal fashion, and their newest class, the Claudios, will replace their Duilio class ships. Leaving them with, in total, six large heavy cruisers, five small capital ships, and three battleships. All of it legal, with room for a seventh heavy cruiser and an additional capital ship in the future."

Not sure about this.

Currently Italy has 3 large battleships, 2 Duilios and 2 Cavours for 7/9 hulls

The 3 Augtus class replace 1 Cavour and bring total up to 9 hulls.

The 2 Claudio Class replace Cesare and Duilio.

This gives 4 Zaras + 3 Pope + 3 Augustus + 2 Claudio + 2 Caracciolo + Lepanto. I don't quite follow your maths.

I've evidently miscounted your CAs - the encyclopedia shows Gorizia being cancelled; was she completed after all?

So that's seven type A cruisers and eight capital ships, then, not six and eight.

I knew it was a mistake to name them after the historical ships. There are 3 x Zaras here, and no Gorizia.

Okay, but your sim report's showing seven heavy cruisers and without Gorizia, you should only have six.

One advantage of playing a fictional nation - no confusion with real-life vessels.

Quoted

I knew it was a mistake to name them after the historical ships. There are 3 x Zaras here, and no Gorizia.

Yes, I found it odd when you said four as the encyclopedia indicates that there are only three Zaras.

Quoted

Okay, but your sim report's showing seven heavy cruisers and without Gorizia, you should only have six.

Well, the CA chapter indicates that Regina Elena is a 1921 design that was rebuilt in 1921 which would mean that the RE still counts towards Italy's tonnages even after they have sold the ship to Siam... but looking at Jane's, I assume the correct year for RE should be 1901 and you probably forgot to remove the RE from Italy's Fleet List in the reports.
... and the picture of the Saints in the encyclopedia (still) has 6x2 100mm turrets and not 7x2.

Yes, Regina Elana is gone to Siam, or soon will be. I forget the exact date. I think it is this quarter sometime.

From your CA thread...

Quoted

Sold to Siam in 1932

Swampy still had to pay for her and still owes me 2199tons, so I guess she'll be transferred in Q3 or Q4 depending on Siam's budget.

Siamese payment for Regina Elena and the four Pilo-class DDs, including refits for all, is scheduled to complete in Q4.

And in other news not related to Siam or Italy:

Quoted

To: Chief, Equipment Development
From: Head, Miscellaneous Ordnance
Date: 16/5/33

As a result of recent developments in my department and others, please find attached a detailed proposal to convert a unit of the Madurai class into an experimental platform. Ideally, Madurai herself will be acquired, as she is presumed to be the first unit due for disposal, and therefore would be available soonest.

Such a conversion would benefit the Bharatiya Nau Sena considerably with respect to testing of new concepts and equipment that has not been approved for installation on existing programs. This is an area which, in the opinion of my peers and I, we are lagging behind nations such as Italy, France, and Canada. Publically accessible reports and photographs are sufficient to demonstrate that these nations and others are aggressively developing and deploying new hardware that may be of significance to future warfighting. It is only by testing and refining our own ideas can we hope to remain a viable naval power in the coming decades.

We are, at present, proposing to test the following systems on Madurai:

1. The Type Nine Dual Oscillator Sonar, which was to have been installed on the Miraj class destroyers until just weeks before their keel-laying.

2. The system code-named Dhuumravarnaa, as detailed in Appendix B.

3. The system code-named Ankh, as detailed in Appendix C.

4. The system currently designated Shrieking Savitri, as detailed in Appendix D.

5. The system code-named Patang, as detailed in Appendix E.

Due to the desire to test incremental improvements on existing weapons, we would seek authorization to retain some existing weapons aboard, including one bank of torpedoes and a 125 mm mount. This may require that Madurai be classified as a Coastal Defence Ship, or possibly still as a Destroyer, depending on the precise wording of the Cleito Treaty and the degree of reconstruction the ship is exposed to.

Quoted

To: Head, Miscellaneous Ordnance
From: Chief, Equipment Development
Date: 19/5/33

Your proposal will be evaluated in conjunction with other non-core items proposed for inclusion in the FY34 budget ask.

Use of Madurai or a sister may be precluded by disposal through sale; it would be beneficial to identify alternate platforms that may offer similar utility at equal or reduced cost.

It is recommended that an appropriate code-name be assigned to the system outlined in your Appendix D.

Depending on the size of this equipment you might find problems in mounting all this equipment on a small destroyer. I'd think one of your older cruisers would be a better bet.

That's a possibility.

I'm sure Canada would feel all important and noteworthy....if it could figure out which area India is significantly lagging behind them in.

Well, autogyroes and the Vickers "Explosion-o-matic" come to mind. I can't tell you about other areas until you reveal them...

Arabia

On 4 April, the Green Dervish division seizes control of the camp in which Indian pilgrims have been holed up for over a year. A census is conducted, and 33,486 people are counted. Approximately 1,700 pilgrims have died in the camp, with the Red Crescent estimating about half were of generally natural causes and the others being disease related. As suspected, cholera in the early months of the camp's existence claimed most of those individuals. On the other hand, 258 children have been born in the camp, about 80% of whom have survived to this point.

Saudi forces do not contest the Indian advance; in fact, a small company of sixty-five men surrender peacefully, their captain explaining that they refused orders to retreat out of concern for the security of the camp.

The pilgrims are evacuated, starting with those who had actually completed their pilgrimage prior to internment. Those who had not done so take the opportunity to stop in Mecca on the way back to Jiddah, and are evaucated later in the month and early May.

Meanwhile, food, munitions, fuel, and water are flowing into Jiddah to support an Indian drive into central Arabia. Conditions in the interior are, however, even worse than they had been elsewhere, with very few roads suitable for motor vehicles, considerable amounts of dust, and appalling heat. India finds it difficult to support more than a single division this far from Jiddah, and limits its offensive to a drive along the road to Riyadh. After a brief skirmish between Indian leading elements and Saudi defenders at Al Quway'iyah, 170 km east-southeast of the capital, on 12 May, the Saudi government grudgingly agrees to begin negotiations to end the conflict. Negotiations are scheduled to commence in Ankara, Turkey on 21 May.

The negotiations move at a ponderous rate as the Saudi representatives frequently send requests for information or direction to Riyadh and wait hours or even days for responses. As of the end of June, negotiations are still ongoing, the fate of Hedjaz being the central issue. The Indian ground attack has advanced forty kilometres past Al Quway'iyah, at great cost in disabled vehicles and some loss of life.

Fighting continues in the meantime. In the Persian Gulf, Saudi small craft launch a renewed attack on Indian-flagged tankers and Persian fishing vessels, causing two tankers to be damaged and several trawlers and other fishing craft to be sunk. Reconnaissance flights from Persia and the Japanese carrier Soryu pinpoint a new Saudi base of operations amid the town of Ra's al Khafji, just south of the border with Kuwait. Initial plans for an aerial attack are scrubbed in favor of an amphibious raid preceded by a sweep of light naval forces - this, it is hoped, will reduce civilian casualties while producing a more definitive and thorough destruction of Saudi facilities.

On 26 May, two Indian Kantabanji-class paritraataa and two Persian torpedo-boats sweep the area, running down two Saudi boats and sinking them. Coming in close to shore, they hose the suspected depot with 35 and 50 mm fire, and receive fire from two or three guns along the shore. These guns are eventually silenced, though the Ambikapur is hit twice by medium-caliber shells.

As six Indian LCVs approach, escorted by a destroyer and the other two paritraataa, another gun reveals itself and batters LCV-5 into ruin as it runs up onto the beach. Several dozen Indian troops and sailors are killed or injured before this gun, too, is destroyed.

By this time, the civilian population has fled into desert around the town, leaving two Indian battalions to have it out with approximately three hundred Saudi troops holding what remains of the depot and a few other strongpoints. Resistence is fierce, but the town is fully secured by the morning of the 28th, with significant damage to its harbour front. The troops are withdrawn on 2 June after the depot is razed and every boat in the town scuttled or burned. Saudi Arabia protests what it calls, "The cold, calculated destruction of Ra's al Khafji's wellbeing". India responds by releasing photographs of fishing boats carrying improvised depth charge racks and pintle mounts. Saudi Arabia claims the photographs are fakes, constructed in some secret Indian "Photo Shop", claims India denies.

This is the last gasp for Saudi naval irregulars during the conflict; Indian and Persian shipping is not molested afterward.

OOC: The following is the abstract of a report by Admiral Kashiram Paswan, submitted to the Samraja shortly before Paswan's retirement in 1933.


Five Years After Cleito: The Bharatiya Nau Sena in 1941

Abstract

The Cleito Treaty has provided a period of stability conducive to the development of the Bharatiya Nau Sena as a modern and capable fighting force. Numerically, the BNS is the second largest naval entity in the Indian Ocean, trailing only the Dutch force in Indonesia. The conclusion of the BNS' Cleito building program will bring the BNS to near-parity with the Dutch presence, barring the deployment of virtually all Dutch assets to the region.

Of our allies, South Africa retains an Indian Ocean presence not much less than our own, but is also stretched in the Atlantic where the resurgence of South American powers has tied down cosniderable RSAN assets. Meanwhile, SATSUMA's presence in the Indian Ocean is negligable, and their ability to enter the region in time of full-scale war is questionable.

Of our rivals, the UKN maintains a fleet of two battleships, two battlecruisers, two aircraft carriers, and supporting elements, with a likely re-deployment of additional capital ships to the region when Dutch infrastructure catches up to their desired deployment levels. Italy maintains an aircraft carrier and several cruisers in Somalia. Both navies have commitments elsewhere, but past experience has demonstrated that these commitments can be offloaded to third parties to free up additional forces.

The current Cleito Treaty is expected to expire in 3.5 years, existing and unforeseen crises not withstanding. Given recent events at Cowes and Copenhavn, it is not expected that a successor to Cleito will be implemented - nor, in the opinion of the author, should one be sought if existing inequities are expected to continue into a future agreement.

The following statistics illustrate current Cleito's inequity:

Indian industrial capacity, relative to estimated Dutch industrial capacity: 73% [OOC: 11/15]

Indian capital ship tonnage, relative to Dutch tonnage: 33%

Indian aircraft carrier tonnage, relative to Dutch tonnage: 73%

Indian cruiser tonnage, relative to Dutch tonnage: 55%

Indian industrial capacity, relative to estimated Italian industrial capacity: 50% [OOC: 11/22]

Indian capital ship tonnage, relative to Italian tonnage: 29%

Indian aircraft carrier tonnage, relative to Italian tonnage: 62%

Indian cruiser tonnage, relative to Italian tonnage: 47%

This author would argue that these statistics are sufficient to illustrate that there is no incentive for the BNS to renew a treaty system that continues current force allocations. We can close the gap with our rivals more effectively without a treaty than we can with one.

To this end, the author proposes increasing the size of the BNS to the following force levels by 1941:

Battle Force:

3 BB (Akbar class); 1 CV (Urumi class); 4 CL; 4 CLAA; 16 DD

Striking Force:

3 CV (Talwar class); 3 CL; 3 CLAA; 12 DD

Cruiser Force;

4 CC; 2 CA; 6 CL; 12 DD

Undersea Force

24 SS
6 SS(M)
~30 SS(C) (includes coastal minelayers)

These figures do not include other assets such as the Fleet Train, Fleet Train Escorts, and the Amphibious Force.

Additional construction efforts required post-1936 to attain these levels are modest: +1 CV, +4 CC, 5 CL, 5 CLAA, 20 SS. Given that by 1936, the BNS' basic infrastructure needs will be addressed, and by 1938, our commitments to COSINE will be concluded, this should be feasible, for it only requires construction of one capital unit, two light cruisers and four submarines annually. Planned refits to existing units should not greatly impair this.

Although Italian and Dutch construction will be similarly unrestricted, their fleet deployments will be constrained by commitments in the Mediterranean and facing our SATSUMA allies. Our central position, coupled with an ability to interdict key choke points required to transit Italian and Duitch assets into the region, should provide a substantial advantage in time of conflict. In addition, development of a large submarine force on our part will be comparitively inexpensive in relation to the cost of developing effective anti-submarine and escort forces on the part of the Netherlands. Development of long-range anti-shipping aircraft for deployment to our atoll bases further complicates Dutch trade and Italian counter-trade operations.

Conclusion of a more equitable arms control treaty can still be considered an option. This will only really be possible if Bharat compromises on issues - regarding Italy, a likely relaxation on capital ship restrictions; regarding the Netherlands, some variety of agreement on Indonesia, the Saigon Protocol perhaps serving as a template if the Dutch TIDE report proves to be a useful starting point.

Quoted

Originally posted by The Rock Doctor
In addition, development of a large submarine force on our part will be comparitively inexpensive in relation to the cost of developing effective anti-submarine and escort forces on the part of the Netherlands. Development of long-range anti-shipping aircraft for deployment to our atoll bases further complicates Dutch trade and Italian counter-trade operations.

Interesting as those two potential threats- particularly the latter- are what drove the developement of the S19 class and the deployment of the 1st-11th escort flotillas. The long period prior to sufficient numbers of those being available led to the rebuilding of the F1s and reconstruction of the Z25s into the S1 class.

Intriguing report, and interesting force composition..

Is it Indian doctrine to operate carriers together, a la the "Striking Force"? Seeing as you only have one at the moment..