WesWorld

I'd say the answer is, "I dunno yet". There will be a fair bit of commonality between the individual CV groups, so they could operate together. Whether they actually will is going to depend on the results of exercises and perceived needs.

Kirk - no doubt the sub and air threats are old news, but I present them so folks have a sense of what Paswan and other Indian folks are thinking.

Rocky,

The entire post was an interesting peek. From the sub/air perspective it was particularly of interest since it addressed a point I was curious about- I have created a group of ~85 escorts with little immediate threat, simply to 1) dissuade development of a serious threat and 2) give the Dutch a head start if one develops.

It would appear that the escorts have failed at number 1), which means their role in 2) will come into play...which I guess means I did not waste tonnage with the S19s after all 8p

-Kirk

Escort tonnage is rarely wasted, and the logic behind #2 is quite valid.

As for deterrence, India can't work a carrot-and-stick approach to its foreign policy objectives with only a carrot. Something has to be the stick, and it might as well be submarines in an unrestricted world.

Very interesting.

Not very many ships being built actually. What are the CCs like? A CC of 20,000tons is a lot different to Lexington.


How does Bharat feel that she can defend herself against current and future threats?

No, it's not a huge expense, and a few of the smaller cruisers are already budgetted for 1934-36 anyway, since I'm now somewhat below my limit due to losses.

A CC might be as small as 14,000 t and as large as 22,000 t, with 25 cm, 28, 30.5 or even 35 cm guns. That doesn't really narrow things down, I know, but I'm still evaulating a whole range of options in that regard.

The CCs are viewed as a primary defence against surface threats on the high seas. With Italy and the Netherlands being viewed as the most likely opponents in a full-blown naval conflict, CCs are primarily to defend Bharat's own SLOC against surface raiders - mainly Italian ACRs and Dutch BCs, but the Italian coastal defence ships are also viewed as potential raiders.

So far as defending itself, the BNS can see that the submarine threat works both ways. There is a plan to increase escort production, but Paswan didn't address this in his report. It isn't a "sexy" topic, and the quantity and type of craft aren't as strongly influenced by the presence or absence of a treaty after Cleito.

Very interesting, Im specialy interested in the CCs. Australia has several designs ranging from 13,000t to 26,000t, with guns ranging from 7.5" to 13.5".

Interesting...and as shown before Chile has an operational CC design that could be useful, though they are a bit on the large size for India's needs...its size coul dbe reduced my reduction in either numbers of guns, range, or speed...or need a redesign for the older Tylor-class to give it firepower to request rather than simply in massive numbers of 8 inch guns.

Quoted

Very interesting, Im specialy interested in the CCs. Australia has several designs ranging from 13,000t to 26,000t, with guns ranging from 7.5" to 13.5".

I'll bet you are, and I'll bet you do.

The Tylor would require a significant change in design to meet my needs, I think. Oyama's an impressive design in some respects, but size (cost) is a consideration.

There's a couple other designs that bearing examination, of course - Germany's Blucher, India's old Shivagi, and the Philippine's reworking of the Shivagi design.

How about this using a cut down version of the Oyama using India guns and twin mounts...also the same engine as the most modern Indian capital ship? Can be adjusted to suit the Indians needs. A heavier vessel could fit twin versions of the larger Indian Capital ship guns.

Of course that depends on just what the Indians want.

Oyama Type

India Heavy Armoured Cruiser laid down 1937

Displacement:
19,549 t light; 20,305 t standard; 22,000 t normal; 23,268 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
738.00 ft / 720.00 ft x 92.00 ft x 22.00 ft (normal load)
224.94 m / 219.46 m x 28.04 m x 6.71 m

Armament:
6 - 9.84" / 250 mm guns (3x2 guns), 476.75lbs / 216.25kg shells, 1937 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
20 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (10x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1937 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
24 - 1.38" / 35.1 mm guns (12x2 guns), 1.32lbs / 0.60kg shells, 1937 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm guns (4x4 guns), 0.10lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1937 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 3,600 lbs / 1,633 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 8.50" / 216 mm 470.00 ft / 143.26 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.00" / 25 mm 470.00 ft / 143.26 m 22.00 ft / 6.71 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 8.50" / 216 mm 4.13" / 105 mm 8.00" / 203 mm
2nd: 4.13" / 105 mm 4.13" / 105 mm 4.00" / 102 mm
3rd: 0.25" / 6 mm - -

- Armour deck: 4.00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 8.50" / 216 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 99,195 shp / 74,000 Kw = 30.74 kts
Range 14,200nm at 12.00 kts (Bunkerage = 3,051 tons)

Complement:
903 - 1,174

Cost:
£7.893 million / $31.574 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 450 tons, 2.0 %
Armour: 7,164 tons, 32.6 %
- Belts: 2,043 tons, 9.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 383 tons, 1.7 %
- Armament: 1,106 tons, 5.0 %
- Armour Deck: 3,489 tons, 15.9 %
- Conning Tower: 144 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 2,749 tons, 12.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,061 tons, 41.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,451 tons, 11.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 125 tons, 0.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
39,440 lbs / 17,890 Kg = 82.7 x 9.8 " / 250 mm shells or 5.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.19
Metacentric height 6.1 ft / 1.9 m
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.26
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.22

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.528
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.83 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 31.13 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.82 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.00 ft / 0.91 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 31.00 ft / 9.45 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Mid (50 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Stern: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Average freeboard: 23.86 ft / 7.27 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 74.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 232.9 %
Waterplane Area: 47,142 Square feet or 4,380 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 134 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 142 lbs/sq ft or 691 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.00
- Longitudinal: 1.26
- Overall: 1.02
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

The powerplant's not a concern, really, so long as the speed is acceptable. My designs have been aiming for a minimum of 31.5 knots, preferrably 32.

What India wants is the ability to catch and destroy other large cruisers in the Indian Ocean. At the moment, for better or worse, the Italian ACRs set the benchmark in that regard.

The catching is easy enough, but the destroying will take a lot more work.

On a ship of almost 20,500 tons standard displacement, I'd expect a lot more firepower than 6 10" guns. Blucher is only about 500 tons bigger and carries 9 11.1" guns.

Quoted

There's a couple other designs that bearing examination, of course - Germany's Blucher, India's old Shivagi, and the Philippine's reworking of the Shivagi design.

Take a look at the new Cruiser design for Mexico I will soon be posting. It will be built in the Phillipines and is a distant relative of Shivagi and Basilan.

Armor and armament comes at a price I suppose. Since I was taking the existing Oyama and simply cutting it down to 22,000 tons normal and reducing its draft by several feet to keep her at a cruiser's block coefficient rather than a destroyer's I had to make trade offs. Now if I was starting from scratch rather than using an existing design, I might have something with a bit more firepower than the 6 gunned Oyama, but more for a 9 or 12 gunned version with thinner armor. But I'd still need to keep her size down to India's requirements.

This vessel is a little too large, but mirrors Indian Capital Ship design with quad turrets fore and aft using 12 inch guns as a 32 knot battlecruiser. If armor was willing to be sacraficed in the face of the Italian cruisers this vessel could be built lighter.

Oyama Type

India Battlecruiser laid down 1937

Displacement:
23,946 t light; 25,124 t standard; 27,000 t normal; 28,393 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
720.00 ft / 700.00 ft x 87.00 ft x 27.00 ft (normal load)
219.45 m / 213.36 m x 26.52 m x 8.23 m

Armament:
8 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (2x4 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1937 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
16 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (8x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1937 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 1.38" / 35.1 mm guns (8x2 guns), 1.32lbs / 0.60kg shells, 1937 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm guns (4 mounts), 0.10lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1937 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 14 raised guns
Weight of broadside 7,500 lbs / 3,402 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 10.0" / 254 mm 455.00 ft / 138.68 m 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.00" / 25 mm 455.00 ft / 138.68 m 27.00 ft / 8.23 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 10.0" / 254 mm 12.0" / 305 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -

- Armour deck: 4.00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 9.00" / 229 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 135,389 shp / 101,000 Kw = 32.10 kts
Range 14,200nm at 12.00 kts (Bunkerage = 3,377 tons)

Complement:
1,053 - 1,369

Cost:
£11.732 million / $46.930 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 937 tons, 3.5 %
Armour: 8,198 tons, 30.4 %
- Belts: 2,522 tons, 9.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 455 tons, 1.7 %
- Armament: 1,693 tons, 6.3 %
- Armour Deck: 3,353 tons, 12.4 %
- Conning Tower: 175 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 3,752 tons, 13.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,933 tons, 40.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,054 tons, 11.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 125 tons, 0.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
35,271 lbs / 15,999 Kg = 40.8 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 4.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 5.0 ft / 1.5 m
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.64
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.21

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.575
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.05 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 30.46 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.01 degrees
Stern overhang: 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Mid (50 %): 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Stern: 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Average freeboard: 28.16 ft / 8.58 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 95.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 229.5 %
Waterplane Area: 45,311 Square feet or 4,209 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 116 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 161 lbs/sq ft or 787 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.81
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oyama Type (less armor)

India Battlecruiser laid down 1937

Displacement:
22,074 t light; 23,212 t standard; 25,000 t normal; 26,331 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
720.00 ft / 700.00 ft x 87.00 ft x 27.00 ft (normal load)
219.45 m / 213.36 m x 26.52 m x 8.23 m

Armament:
8 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (2x4 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1937 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
16 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (8x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1937 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 1.38" / 35.1 mm guns (8x2 guns), 1.32lbs / 0.60kg shells, 1937 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
16 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm guns (4 mounts), 0.10lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1937 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 14 raised guns
Weight of broadside 7,500 lbs / 3,402 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 10.0" / 254 mm 455.00 ft / 138.68 m 13.00 ft / 3.96 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.00" / 25 mm 455.00 ft / 138.68 m 27.00 ft / 8.23 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 12.0" / 305 mm 10.0" / 254 mm 10.0" / 254 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -

- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 126,005 shp / 94,000 Kw = 32.08 kts
Range 14,200nm at 12.00 kts (Bunkerage = 3,219 tons)

Complement:
993 - 1,292

Cost:
£11.176 million / $44.705 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 937 tons, 3.7 %
Armour: 7,049 tons, 28.2 %
- Belts: 2,516 tons, 10.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 455 tons, 1.8 %
- Armament: 1,443 tons, 5.8 %
- Armour Deck: 2,414 tons, 9.7 %
- Conning Tower: 222 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 3,492 tons, 14.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,469 tons, 41.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,926 tons, 11.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 125 tons, 0.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
31,197 lbs / 14,151 Kg = 36.1 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 3.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
Metacentric height 5.2 ft / 1.6 m
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.60
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.21

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.532
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.05 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 30.61 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.01 degrees
Stern overhang: 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Mid (50 %): 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Stern: 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Average freeboard: 26.32 ft / 8.02 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 98.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 216.9 %
Waterplane Area: 43,498 Square feet or 4,041 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 115 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 162 lbs/sq ft or 790 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.94
- Longitudinal: 1.75
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Not bad - I've been looking at a similar layout with 11" guns on a smaller hull.

The freeboard can be reduced - I'm happy with seakeeping of around 1.10.

I'll make adjustments later today.

Do you want to keep the 12" or go for an Indian 11" with 1.10 seakeeping, roughly 32 knots and somewhere around 20,000 to 22,000 tons light?

Do you care if the ship is wet forward or not? I try to get my ships to not have that warning if possible.

Try the 11" on 22,000 t light; I prefer they be dry forward.

125mm secondaries would be preferred over 105, so as to give a decent surface punch.

heh I was tinkering with a 8x11", 125mm secondary design last night for the Dutch, trying to forecast what will be necessary for a post-treaty next generation heavy cruiser/BC.

Myself Im thinkering with 8x12" all fow (Dunkerque style) with mixed secondaries (6", 4") or the same version only with 6x13.5" guns. But I also have designs ranging from smaller Lions, to overgrown treaty cruisers. The design the Indians build will greatly influence which one I build.

Hmm...have the Dutch been spying on me?

Foxy: given that I'm perhaps countering 15 - 18 kt ships with 20-22 kt ships, you should probably figure on needing ~25-28 kt responses. I'm curious if Australia has the resources handy to tackle that.