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1

Monday, January 1st 2007, 11:27am

Talons Over Cordoba Contest 1933

Here we are again, another year and another contest.

The competiiton will be held in Q3, most likely August. This will be it's permanent date from now on.

In the view of last years events there are some rule changes from last year.

Here are the rules;

1. Any nation can enter a maximum of two fighters; they can different types or the same

2. Carrier based fighters are also welcome

3. Entries must be production machines, that is to say they must be in regular service or approaching the end of testing and entering service within six months. This does not cover any modifications to service machines

4. Engine tuning is allowed and some engine modifications, superchargers may be fitted to improve performance and fuel additives may be used.

5. No armament to be fitted, ballast to weight of guns must be added.

6. All aircraft must be fitted with at least a radio receiver for safety reasons

7. Pilots must have over three years of flying experience on single-engined types, test pilots are allowed to compete but other civilian pilots are not. Rank of the pilot is not an issue.

8. All monoplanes and biplanes will compete in separate race events, all duels will also be separate but an extra Grand Final Duel will feature both types of fighter. Bombing and altitude and cross country races will be of mixed groups. Pilots will score points and these will be tallied to declare a winner.


Argentina will enter two pilots.

No1 Maj Gen. Carron-Gomez flying his personal bright azure blue FMA I-100 Barron, this is the third production aircraft

No2 Major S. Castro flying a standard FMA I-100 Barron

2

Monday, January 1st 2007, 5:05pm

Italy will be sending more or less the same aircraft again;



Caproni Chiodi CH.1 bis flown by de Bernardi. Generally similar but some advancements made with the engine. Supercharger is working better now.

Type: Caproni-Chiodi CH.1bis
Function: Fighter
Crew: 1 Engines: 1*870hp Piaggio P.IX RC.40
Wing Span: 8.60m Length: 7.19m Height: 2.90m Wing Area: 19.00m2
Empty Weight: 1400kg Max.Weight: 2000kg
Speed: 436km/h Ceiling: Range: 1000km
Armament: 4*mg7.7mm



Bergamini returns for the 3rd year in a row with the newer Caproni 165

Type: Ca.165
Function: fighter
Year: 1933 Crew: 1 Engines: 1 * 880hp Isotta-Fraschini Asso XI RC40
Wing Span: 9.30m Length: 8.10m Height: 2.80m Wing Area: 21.40m2
Empty Weight: 1855kg Max.Weight: 2425kg
Speed: 466km/h Ceiling: Range: 672km
Armament: 4*7.7mm mg

It is thought that the added power, streamlining and supercharged engines will make them eclipse the recent monoplanes.

3

Monday, January 1st 2007, 11:47pm

The Philippines will return with the same two pilots and aircraft.

4

Tuesday, January 2nd 2007, 12:29am

From the FAM:



TNCA Quetzalcoat (Winged Serpent)

Power: Pratt & Witney 650hp R-1535-72 Twin Wasp Junior

Armament: Two 7.62/0.3in machine guns

Size: Wingspan - 32ft
Length - 21ft
Wing area - 200sq ft

Weight: Empty - 2500lb
Max take-off - 3500lb

Performance: Max speed - 250mph
Ceiling - 27,500ft
Range - 400 miles
Climb - 3000ft per minute


The veteran and highest scoring ace in the FAM Capitan Valenzuela will be flying a standard version of the Quetzalcoat.

Mr. Lascurian will make his third apperance on a special souped up version of the same.



The RAAF will send a pair of CAC-7 Shrikes



SPECIFICATIONS :
Span: 29 ft. 5 in.
Length: 25 ft. 1 in.
Height: 7 ft. 8 in.
Weight: 2,502 lbs. empty/3,270 lbs. (maximum)
Armament: Two fixed .30-cal. machine guns or one .50- and one .30-cal. machine gun
Engine: Pratt and Whitney R-1340-35 Wasp of 575 hp at 7,500 ft.
Crew: One

PERFORMANCE:
Maximum speed: 242 mph at 7,500 ft.
Cruising speed: 206 mph
Service ceiling: 24,200 ft.

Note: The Australian aircraft are a more advanced and powerful version, so the performance will be better than listed above.

5

Tuesday, January 2nd 2007, 7:45pm

If anyone wants to use an historic design as a basis and add more advanced features, like the CAC-7, then can you please detail exactly which areas are improved, eg. engine, less drag or lower weight? If not I'll assume a broad 5% improvement over the real performance figures.

I'm only really bothered about speed, weight and horsepower as these are part of the calculations. I just want to be sure everyone is on a level playing field rather than me guessing how much better an aircraft might perform. I might under or overestimate otherwise and it might skew the results.

And I'll try not to kill anyone this year... ;0)

6

Tuesday, January 2nd 2007, 8:04pm

A 5% improvement sounds fine, they are after all prototypes. I havent actually done the specs yet for them but will do so.


Here you go, main change is more powerful engine faster plane:

CAC-7 Shrike

Power: Pratt & Witney 650hp R-1535-72 Twin Wasp Junior

Armament: Two 7.62/0.3in machine guns

Size: Wingspan - 29ft
Length - 25ft
Wing area - 170sq ft

Weight: Empty - 2500lb
Max take-off - 3300lb

Performance: Max speed - 270mph
Ceiling - 24,500ft
Range - 300 miles
Climb - 2500ft per minute

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Desertfox" (Jan 2nd 2007, 8:09pm)


7

Tuesday, January 2nd 2007, 8:08pm

Thread Here for estimating maximum speed

Hope it makes sense. Its reasonably accurate for this flight envelope. Example with the CH.1 which had 560hp to do 377km/h;

377 / (560^1/3) = 45.7 [drag number]

Still with P.IX engine but developed to give 870hp

45.7 * (870^1/3) = 436km/h

I decided to wait a year before unleashing the first of the monoplanes under development after the appearance of the I-100 in 1931. Gives more time for testing and engine tweaking. She climbs like a lift and can most likely outmaneuver anything apart from rotorcraft.

8

Tuesday, January 2nd 2007, 8:34pm

India regrets that it will not be able to participate in this year's event.

9

Tuesday, January 2nd 2007, 9:49pm

It'll be the Sopwith Odin again for Nordmark, with hopefully a more reliable engine now they are in full service. I expect she should do better this year. And once more she will be flown by Flight Luitenant Ronnie Hellström

Type: Sopwith Odin Mk2
Function: Fighter
First Flight: 1931; Entry into Service: 1933
Crew: 1
Engines: 1*1000hp Husquarna H60-52
Wing Span: 36ft; Length: 29ft; Height: 12ft 9in; Wing Area: 200sqft
Weight fully laden: 4500lb
Max Speed: 325mph at 14,000ft
Ceiling: 33,000ft
Range: 650nm
Armament: 6*0.3inch MGs(4mounted in Wings and 2 in Nose)

Also a Carrier version of the older Saab Viking will be sent, flown by the more experienced, Wing Commander Otto Larsen
While now outclassed in her field, she will give a good impression.

Type: Viking Interceptor Mk1
Function: Biplane Fighter
First Flight: 1929; Entry into Service: 1930
Crew: 1
Engines: 1*650hp Saab X60-650
Wing Span: 32ft; Length: 27ft 5in; Height: 10ft 7in; Wing Area: 330sqft
Weight fully laden: 4800lb
Max Speed: 255mph at 12,000ft
Ceiling: 28,000ft
Range: 500nm
Armament: 6*0.3inch MGs(4 mounted in Wings and 2 in Nose)

Kaiser Kirk

Lightbringer and former European Imperialist

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10

Wednesday, January 3rd 2007, 1:41am

Nether Netherlands

The Dutch entry will be a Fokker D.XVIIbis bi-plane, flown by Navy Flight Lieutenant Jacob Huyrluyt and the new Fokker D.XIX monoplane flown by Fokker test pilot Ms. Rianne Rijker.

The D.XVIIbis was Introduced to service in August of 1931, the new plane was an enlarged version of the D.XVII which abandoned Fokkers traditional mixed construction for the more advanced construction methods used by Avia and Fokker-America. Powered by a powerful Avia-licensed built version of the Hispano-Suiza 12Y, a liquid-cooled inline V-12, the plane is armed with two heavy and two light machine guns, and even has an armored disk to protect the pilots back should the worst happen. Designed for carrier service, the plane has good stall characteristics, robust landing gear, long range and is the first model equipped with a radio.

Fokker D.XVIIb
1931 biplane fighter
Carrier or rough field
Crew : 1
Powerplant : 760hp Hispano-Suiza 12Y
Armament : 2x 13.2mm HMG, 2x 7.92 mm MG, radio
Armor : 10mm disk behind pilot
Range : 400nm at 133knts
Rate of climb : 2,271 fpm at 115knts loaded, 2,486 fpm light
Loaded Stall speed : 55kts
Ceiling : 39,500
Max speed : 256kts (294mph)
Corner Turn rate : 41.7 degrees/sec
Maneuver Turn rate : 20.1 degrees/sec @ 142kts
Weight (max) : 4,500 lbs
Cost : $19,000
Wing Span: 10.36m Length: 8.08m Wing Area: 21.6m2

Performance stripped : 259kts (298mph), 2,897 fpm rate of climb
(Source: Planebuilder)

The D.XIX first flew in 1932 and is expected to enter service in late 1933. The design is an update of the promising 1926 prototype D.XIV monoplane with its distinctive swept leading edge. The D.XIX has numerous improvements, including more modern construction techniques, improved landing gear, propeller and a full canopy. Designed for prepared airfields, the plane boasts the same armament but superior speed to the D.XVIIbis, at some cost in maneuverability. The Hispano-Suiza 12Y-21 has seen minor improvements over earlier models, but due to 100-octane fuel delivers 867hp.

Fokker D.XIX (D.XIV bis)
1933 monoplane fighter
Conventional
Crew : 1
Powerplant : 867hp Hispano-Suiza 12Ybrs
Armament : 2x 13.2mm HMG, 2x 7.92 mm MG, radio. 50kg ordinance
Armor : 10mm disk behind pilot
Range : 350nm at 155 knts
Rate of climb : 2,543 fpm at 127knts loaded, 2,867 fpm light
Loaded Stall speed : 63kts
Ceiling : 38,250 at 177knts
Max speed : 281kts (323 mph)
Corner Turn rate : 37.3 degrees/sec
Manuever Turn rate : 16.0 degrees/sec @153kts
Weight (max) : 4,500 lbs
Cost : $22,000
Wing Span: 10.75m Length: 7.89m Wing Area: 17.65m2

Performance stripped : 286kts (329mph), 3,431 fpm rate of climb
(Source: Planebuilder)

11

Wednesday, January 3rd 2007, 2:05am

Stiff competition from the Dutch this year !

12

Wednesday, January 3rd 2007, 12:27pm

Quoted

but due to 100-octane fuel delivers 867hp


Most likely no 100-oct fuel until the late 30s. 1940 was in service date with RAF iirc. To get 100-oct fuel in early 30s you'll probably be needing to blend methanol in like on the R-R "R" engine. Wikipedia article on the 12Y seems to suggest otherwise which is very strange...

Kaiser Kirk

Lightbringer and former European Imperialist

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13

Wednesday, January 3rd 2007, 5:31pm

Hmm, that Wiki article is where I got the idea. I had a rather frustrating time researching pre-WWII piston engines, few dates or dimensions, varying reports of power outputs, etc.

However, we are a couple years ahead tech-wise, and I did lay the groundwork for this with a Q2,1932 report of Shell having made octane improvements to allow more engine power.

Oddly doesn't come up on search, I had to poke around my *.doc versions a bit to find it.

Anyhow the designs appear to be competitive, but not out of range, which is good.

14

Wednesday, January 3rd 2007, 7:42pm

Once more, F.O. Basil Heath will be flying his trusty Hawker Fury, albeit now with a super-streamlined, drag-reducing fin on the fuselage and a new wax used for polishing, which will give his aircraft a maximum speed of 4,000 miles per hour.

Ahem...

F.O. Heath has now been removed from the bar. Hopefully, he will have sobered up in time to compete.

The new Hawker Hurricane, expected to enter service early in 1934, will be piloted by Flight Lieutenant "George" Bulman. Assuming, that is, that it all works.

Type: Hawker Hurricane
Function: Fighter
* Crew: One
* Length: 32 ft 3 in
* Wingspan: 40 ft
* Height: 13 ft 1.5 in
* Wing area: 257.5 sq ft
* Empty weight: 5,640 lb
* Loaded weight: 8,250 lb
* Powerplant: 1× Rolls-Royce Peregrine I V12 engine, 870 hp
* Maximum speed: 307 mph at 21,500 feet
* Service ceiling: 34,000 ft
* Rate of climb: 2,660 ft/min (13.2 m/s)

N.B. This may prove optimistic, as the aircraft has not actually flown at the time of submission; the projected date of service entry in early 1934 will not be achieved. But you don't know that.

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "RLBH" (Jan 3rd 2007, 10:05pm)


15

Wednesday, January 3rd 2007, 8:02pm

You might have the wingspan and length the wrong way round...

Might be better to use to Kestrel on production aircraft as its actually reliable.

Probably need some go faster stripes on the Fury to make that speed.

16

Wednesday, January 3rd 2007, 10:09pm

Quite right. This is what happens when blindly copying data.

The Peregrine ought to be okay if properly developed, but the initial service aircraft (proper service, this time) will probably have Kestrels whilst development occurs.

Go-faster stripes would interfere with the super-polished surface.

17

Thursday, January 4th 2007, 1:14am

Paint it red, red goes faster.

As for the US entry: Right now the US is in somewhat of a state of flux, with new designs being tested after the poor showing last year. It is highly unlikely that anything new will be ready by the time of the competition. As of right now the Navy entry would be an F2F, while the AAC would probably send a Peashooter. Pilots would be the same, Doolittle and Thatch. Consider that the provisional entry. I'll get the stats together and post them in the next couple of days.

18

Saturday, January 6th 2007, 2:43am

What the Fury needs is some neon lighting and canards and possibly pop-up headlights.

I'm going to see if I can't make a drawing of the Ki-12, with Walter's help.

19

Saturday, January 6th 2007, 2:01pm

Atlantean entry...

Captain Fabris "Jester" Lavidicus flying a supercharged Spartan F-9 "Storm"
Colonal Marcus "Maverick" Cassius flying his FMA I-100 Barron.

20

Sunday, January 7th 2007, 5:28pm

As usual, no entry from Germany in 1933. In 1934, though, there may be a pair of Bf-109s sent to Cordoba to compete.