WesWorld

Combat Test - Graf Spee vs Force G

OK, Here is a test.

There are 4 ships in 3 groups. I'll accept 3 rounds of orders (9 minutes of play) for each group. First in best dressed but once you have submitted valid orders you can't submit orders for other groups. The three groups are Graf Spee, Exeter and Ajax/Achilles.

More details on rules etc. are here.

The action has opened at 618 with Force G splitting. The range is about 18,000 yards. You can take it from here. When all ships have orders for 624, 627 and 630 I'll update the plot, resolve combat and post for a new round.

Orders will be accepted in the form:
(Time(3 minute steps))-(Ship)-(Speed at start of turn)-(heading change (P for Port and S for Starboard))-(Target,gunsize and target)

1st Poster
615 Exeter 14kt 0 14kt
618 Exeter 14kt 0 14kt
621 Exeter 14kt P135 13kt Target 8"-Graf Spee

2nd Poster
615 Ajax/Achilles 14kt 0 14kt
618 Ajax/Achilles 14kt 0 14kt
621 Ajax/Achilles 14kt 0 22kt Target 6" -Graf Spee

3rd Poster
615 Graf Spee 14kt 0 14kt
618 Graf Spee 14kt 0 14kt
621 Graf Spee 14kt P45 18kt Target 11" -Exeter

Note that Graf Spee has a secondary armament of 5.9" guns that can also be used but they suffer from using a secondary director. A secondary director would need to be used if GS is to split her main armament.

The current plot is thus:



Ship charts are as follows

I'm assuming you'd like the orders via PM, submitting Graf Spee's orders now..

Orders for Ajax and Achilles sent, hopefully correct...

Interesting to see which way, or if Graf Spee turns.

What were the initial headings?

Who is running Exeter?

Quoted

Originally posted by Ithekro
Who is running Exeter?

So far, it looks like no one.

Okay.

While we get the hang of this, if we can post orders in this thread rather than PM for me that way there is no mystery as to if all ships have been spoken for.

I'm enjoying the flu at the moment so please bear with me...


624
Exeter heads NW while the Light cruisers head NE. Graf Spee heads East.

All ships had open fired at 621 but there were no hits. At 624 Exeter, Ajax and Achilles all hit the Graf Spee while GS misses in return. The 8" hit is in a non-critical area at 13390yards and does 256pts damage. Of the 4 6" hits at 15240 yards one fails to penetrate the deck over an engine room, 2 are non-critical and one hits in the bow causing loss of speed and some additional damage points.

627
All ships continue on their current heading and increase speed. Only Exeter manages a single hit at 10880 yards that hits in a non critical area on Graf Spee causing a futher 256pts damage.

630
All ships continue on the same course and heading while building up to full speed. Range is reduced and all ships hit their targets. Exeter takes one 11" round in a non-critcal area and suffering 611 points of damage. Ajax receives a 5.9" round at 12140 yards from Graf Spee's secondary armament that glances off her belt over a boiler room. Graf Spee takes one 8" 9450 yards and four 6" hits at 12140 yards, two in the bow, two non-critical and the 8" that causes flooding. Cumulative damage has reduced Graf Spee to 22 knots and she has suffered 15% damage but no ships have suffered critical damage. Armour has only helped Ajax with stopping a 5.9" from disabling a boiler (3" armour stopping 2.7" of penetration).



Damage to Graf Spee


Damage to Exeter


Damage to Ajax


OK, now I'll accept orders for 633, 636, 639.

Cheers,

Sounds good so far. Thanks for computing the stuff.

I wonder why GS did not turn away. Whoever plays her probably has done her no favour. Historically she only survived so long because the two CLs never got close enough to really to much harm...

Going from where GS is now whe probably needs to make smoke, turn 45° north and concentrate on the premier CL.

Or

Turn on smoke and make a 135° turn to north to start a running battle with Exeter. This way she´ll be masked against the CLs and can concentrate on the more potential enemy with all guns.

Turning will cost her speed but being reduced by damage to 22kn max she´ll loose some anyway. So better use the loss of speed for something useful...

Just my thoughts, I´m not running her.

Greets,

HoOmAn

Wouldn't turning away mask her forward guns firing arcs? She'd be down half her main armament vs. 3 cruisers.

Quoted

Just my thoughts, I´m not running her.

You can if you like. First in best dressed.

Cheers,

Quoted

Originally posted by thesmilingassassin
Wouldn't turning away mask her forward guns firing arcs? She'd be down half her main armament vs. 3 cruisers.

No. Her firing arcs will allow her to use all her guns, I´m pretty sure.

Thinking of it again and assuming the british commanders do not know in advance what happens (like when posting turns on a puplic board), I´d take GS around 135° while making smoke. This way the distance to the two CLs will be opened, allowing GS armor to protect her while both CL will have troubles seeing her and shooting at her in general. Such a move would bring GS on a course parallel to EXETER which is the more dangerous and also closer enemy. She has to be dealt with first before some real damage is done.

Roger, GS´ 15cm and 28cm splashes should be easily recognized thus not impairing her shooting. But what about the British ships? There we have two units using the same caliber and another using a larger one but I assume splashes are similar in general. What effect does it have on their shooting? Does your ruleset take care of such situations? Does it also allow the use of smoke? Thanks...

Ajax + Achilles
0633 31knts P45 31knts [-3 turn +3 accel] Target 6" Graf Spee
0636 31knts 0 31knts Target 6" Graf Spee
0639 31knts P45 31knts Target 6" Graf Spee [Might have to sound collision bell at this point?]

Is it possible to use 4" guns as well?

Quoted

Historically she only survived so long because the two CLs never got close enough to really to much harm...

Suffice to say that that factor has been taken care of. The now 10knt speed advantage will help quite a lot.

You know, I watched The Battle of the River Plate yesterday. Once this battle has been solved, how about rerunning it using the ships that were used in the movie?

To save you time looking up the ships:
HMS Achilles => INS Delhi
HMS Exeter => HMS Jamaica
HMS Ajax => HMS Sheffield
Admiral Graf Spee => USS Salem

633 Exeter 29kt 0 29kt Target 8"-Graf Spee
636 Exeter 29kt S45 (-3kt/+3kt) 29kt Target 8"-Graf Spee
639 Exeter 29kt 0 32kt Target 8"-Graf Spee

Heh, well, the idea behind the orders that GS used was to stabilize my course so as to get more hits quickly on Exeter, hopefully knocking her out of the fight. However, the dice didn't fall my way, which has put me in a bit of a pickle.

If we can use 4" guns, I've got some that I'd be using!

Quoted

Originally posted by HoOmAn
Roger, GS´ 15cm and 28cm splashes should be easily recognized thus not impairing her shooting. But what about the British ships? There we have two units using the same caliber and another using a larger one but I assume splashes are similar in general. What effect does it have on their shooting? Does your ruleset take care of such situations? Does it also allow the use of smoke? Thanks...

For capital ships, ships using the same size gun tended to use different color dyes to mark their splashes. I'm not sure if the same was done for smaller ships, but it shouldn't be implausible.

Dye bags were not, to my knowledge, used on smaller guns because there were too many different ships using those smaller guns.

OK.

1st up, apologies Hrolf, I just downloaded the thread and not checked my PM's.

I haven't allowed for a 3 vs 1 to affect targeting.

Regarding smoke. I'd say that laying smoke will not help the target ship until it is obscured by smoke. Smoke isn't bullet proof but we can say that the range is effectively doubled like it is in night actions.

Re 4". I'll say no at this stage. If you want to use torps just say at what time you fire and what target.

Quoted

Admiral Graf Spee => USS Salem

Not very sporting. I guess for the movie they should have just used Delhi and Salem and lots of editing. If you need Exeter just film Delhi from the forward quarter and have lots of midgets for crew.


Dye bags were definately not used at this stage by RN ships. IIRC an early war exercise by French and RN ships, the French asked 'what colour are you firing' when the RN ship replied 'what are you talking about?' the French replied 'you fire white then'.


---

I've taken Hoo's 'intentions' for GS so the orders would be turn away and concetrate on Exeter.

0633 25knts P135 16knts -SMOKE Target 11" Exeter Target 5.9 Exeter
0636 16knts 0 22knts Target 11" Exeter Target 5.9 Exeter
0639 22knts 0 22knts Target 11" Exeter Target 5.9 Exeter


633
Graf Spee turns NW and makes smoke, this has successfully masked GS from Ajax and Achilles who have turned north. Exeter continues NE and is now on the same heading as GS. A random event has occured to GS, a fuel mix problem caused her to smoke and lose speed but she was also making a smoke screen and losing speed from the turn. Both GS and Exeter hit each other. Exeter takes two 11" hits at 9080 yards, one on the stern and the other destroying the Starboard torpedo bank. The 5.9" hit has hit the main director putting the guns under local control. Graf Spee takes two 8" hits in non critical areas, flooding also continues. Ajax and Achilles fail to hit through the smoke.

636
Exeter turns North while Ajax and Achilles are also heading north. A second random event occurs for GS, she has a signalling error and makes a 45 degree turn to Port. This actually worked to GS's favour, she has now crossed the 'T' with Exeter. To Ajax and Achilles, GS has disappeared in the smoke, they fail to hit. Exeter is now only firing her forward guns and makes only one 8" hit at 6000 yards that glances off the deck over an engine room. Exter again takes two 11" hits in non-critical areas and a 5.9" hit in the bow.

639
Ajax and Achilles are just comming to the end of the smoke while GS makes two more 11" hits on Exeter at 3350 yards. One hits the bridge and the other is non critical but a 5.9" shell has disabled an engine. She is now down to 12 knots and damage is about 45%. Graf Spee is at 21 knots and 19% damage.



Exeter Damage


Graf Spee Damage


OK. Orders for 642, 645 and 648.

Well, she can't run away. might as well go down fighting with all guns and torpedoes. If he can be slowed down the two Leanders will catch him.

642 Exeter 22kt S45 16kt Target 8"-Graf Spee
645 Exeter 16kt 0 12kt Target 8"-Graf Spee
Port Torpedoes at Graf Spee at 0646 hours.
648 Exeter 12kt P45 12kt Target 8"-Graf Spee