WesWorld

Well here are some other potential ships for the Dutch in 1933-34.

Rather than one immense post with all the designs, which I’ve done before, I’m trying a preview post and then one per vessel. Hopefully easier to digest.

I’m not sure what all I will have room to build, I’m still adjusting the 1933-34 forecast.
I can fit the major refits of the Borneos and ZPs, a life-extension refit of the K-1s, the Maasrichts , the Kruningens , some MAS 1000s, finishing the Heemskerck and Ster aka Erzatz Amsterdams…. but I’m not sure what else.

1. A new fleet submarine design as follow on to the O-1 class.
2. A new minesweeper design- the 1915 JSWs are getting long in the tooth.
3. A major refit/life extension of the Borneo class. Similar in concept to the refit the two Javas had back @Q1/1930, and which I noted I failed to stick in the encyclopedia. The Borneos and Javas are slightly younger than the Amsterdams/Palengbangs, bigger and faster, making them worth refitting. That and I can’t afford to actually replace them instead.
4. A major refit/life extension of the Zeven Provincen class. The ZP’s are now that old, and I can’t even lay the keels to replace them until February 1935, which means the ZPs will be serving until 1939. This should see them through.

1. First, the new fleet submarine- the 0-5 Zwaardvisch which I based off a trimmed down Polish Orzel- which was Dutch designed and built. The OTL Dutch made a number of innovations during the 1930s, of which the Kx-35 is supposed to be my “testbed”.

These included improved hydraulic controls for dive controls and valves, heavy use of welding, and anti-aircraft guns in wells, as well as a schnorkel. Anyone happen to know how much miscellaneous weight I should allocate for a schnorkel? The K-35x is testing one now, but I don’t know how I should account for it.

Peculiarities : “deck mount with hoist” is not actually that. For the 100mm this represents an enclosed mount optimized for low turbulence, with the shield blended to the con and probably partially recessed in the casing. For the 40mm and 20mm this represents the historic vertical well found in the OTL Swede Sjolojonet and Dutch O-19 class, and DOzel- both designed by Herr Techel who in Wesworld has stayed in the Netherlands I presume these were the disappearing mountings used in the Orzel


Zwaardvisch, Netherlands Submarine laid down 1933

Displacement:
998 t light; 1,026 t standard; 1,170 t normal; 1,285 t full load

Treaty compliant displacements are : 746t light, 826t standard
Treaty reported displacement will be : 800t

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
275.59 ft / 275.59 ft x 21.98 ft x 13.12 ft (normal load)
84.00 m / 84.00 m x 6.70 m x 4.00 m

Armament:
1 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns in single mounts, 30.51lbs / 13.84kg shells, 1933 Model
Dual purpose gun in a deck mount with hoist
on centreline forward
2 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1933 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
2 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1933 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 35 lbs / 16 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
4 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes, 8 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.39" / 10 mm 0.39" / 10 mm 0.39" / 10 mm
2nd: 0.39" / 10 mm 0.39" / 10 mm 0.39" / 10 mm
3rd: 0.39" / 10 mm 0.39" / 10 mm 0.39" / 10 mm

Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion generators plus batteries,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 2,001 shp / 1,493 Kw = 16.00 kts
Range 16,500nm at 8.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 260 tons

Complement:
99 - 130

Cost:
£0.221 million / $0.884 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 4 tons, 0.4 %
Armour: 2 tons, 0.2 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 2 tons, 0.2 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 58 tons, 5.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 653 tons, 55.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 172 tons, 14.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 280 tons, 23.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
546 lbs / 247 Kg = 17.9 x 3.9 " / 100 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.03
Metacentric height 0.5 ft / 0.2 m
Roll period: 12.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 0 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.515
Length to Beam Ratio: 12.54 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 16.60 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 36 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Stern: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Average freeboard: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 104.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 0.0 %
Waterplane Area: 4,092 Square feet or 380 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 270 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 109 lbs/sq ft or 534 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 3.61
- Longitudinal: 1.06
- Overall: 1.44
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is extremely poor
Ship has quick, lively roll, not a steady gun platform
Caution: Lacks seaworthiness - very limited seakeeping ability

Miscellaneous weight:
8t deck-casing torpedoes (4)
44t three sets internal torpedoes (24)
10t hydrophone
10t schnorkel
8 tons true misc.

200 tons ballast

Torpedoes are
Diameter 21"
Weight 1650 Kg
Length 7.2 m
Warhead 300/350 Kg TNT
Range/Speed 4000 m at 45 kts
12000 m at 28 kts
Power plant 2 cylinder (double) engine

2. The new Minesweeper. The old JSW was based off of OTL 1936 Dutch minesweepers. The new one is developed from that. Not to sure how much weight to allocate for MS gear. 35 tons worked nicely, though I could do more.

Jan Van Gelder, Netherlands Minesweeper laid down 1933

Displacement:
382 t light; 398 t standard; 561 t normal; 691 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
222.96 ft / 209.97 ft x 26.25 ft x 6.89 ft (normal load)
67.96 m / 64.00 m x 8.00 m x 2.10 m

Armament:
1 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns in single mounts, 30.51lbs / 13.84kg shells, 1927 Model
Quick firing gun in deck mount
on centreline forward, 1 raised gun
4 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1933 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
4 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1928 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 0.52" / 13.2 mm guns in single mounts, 0.07lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1933 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 40 lbs / 18 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.59" / 15 mm - -
2nd: 0.39" / 10 mm 0.43" / 11 mm -
3rd: 0.39" / 10 mm - -
4th: 0.24" / 6 mm - -

Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion motors,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 2,233 shp / 1,666 Kw = 18.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 293 tons

Complement:
56 - 74

Cost:
£0.126 million / $0.503 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 5 tons, 0.9 %
Armour: 3 tons, 0.5 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 3 tons, 0.5 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 65 tons, 11.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 274 tons, 48.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 179 tons, 32.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 35 tons, 6.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,727 lbs / 784 Kg = 56.6 x 3.9 " / 100 mm shells or 1.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.23
Metacentric height 1.0 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 11.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 76 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.10
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2.00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
Block coefficient: 0.517
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 14.49 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 38
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 18.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 19.78 ft / 6.03 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 18.14 ft / 5.53 m (10.14 ft / 3.09 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 10.14 ft / 3.09 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 10.14 ft / 3.09 m
- Stern: 10.14 ft / 3.09 m
- Average freeboard: 11.87 ft / 3.62 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 52.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 128.6 %
Waterplane Area: 3,730 Square feet or 346 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 270 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 39 lbs/sq ft or 189 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.01
- Longitudinal: 4.96
- Overall: 1.19
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

11mm "other" armor on 40mm mounts is for weight of additional 1/2 ton Hazemeyer gear per twin mount.

30t misc is for MSW gear
5 tons is for 5 "creep" motors to serve as thrusters mounted fore/aft each side, and 1 stern.

3. The life extension refit of the Borneos. Basically bringing the armament in-line with the rest of the fleet. 152mm deck guns replace the 130mm, 75mm DP replace the 100mm QF, while two quad 40mm mounts replace the old 75mm AA. The old 40mm anti-boat guns are replaced with twin 20mm AA mounts. The 21” torpedoes are replaced with the 24” introduced in the Breda class. All this drops the Composite hull strength down to 0.91, which is still acceptable for a <6,000t cruiser. Basically they’ve been running around with a relative 1.11 and this brings it to 1.0.

Borneo, Holland Light Cruiser laid down 1918

Displacement:
5,584 t light; 5,812 t standard; 6,526 t normal; 7,097 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
451.91 ft / 442.91 ft x 50.03 ft x 20.01 ft (normal load)
137.74 m / 135.00 m x 15.25 m x 6.10 m

Armament:
7 - 5.98" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 110.23lbs / 50.00kg shells, 1926 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread
4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1928 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts
on side ends, evenly spread
8 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (2x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1933 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
12 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (6x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1918 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
4 - 0.52" / 13.2 mm guns in single mounts, 0.07lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1918 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 842 lbs / 382 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
6 - 24.0" / 609.6 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2.99" / 76 mm 387.14 ft / 118.00 m 11.81 ft / 3.60 m
Ends: 1.26" / 32 mm 55.77 ft / 17.00 m 11.81 ft / 3.60 m
Main Belt covers 134 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.18" / 30 mm 0.59" / 15 mm -
2nd: 0.59" / 15 mm - -
3rd: 0.39" / 10 mm 0.83" / 21 mm -
4th: 0.39" / 10 mm - -

- Armour deck: 0.98" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 0.98" / 25 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 66,751 shp / 49,796 Kw = 31.00 kts
Range 15,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,285 tons

Complement:
362 - 471

Cost:
£1.237 million / $4.950 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 103 tons, 1.6 %
Armour: 893 tons, 13.7 %
- Belts: 578 tons, 8.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 34 tons, 0.5 %
- Armour Deck: 273 tons, 4.2 %
- Conning Tower: 7 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 2,408 tons, 36.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,154 tons, 33.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 942 tons, 14.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 27 tons, 0.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
4,843 lbs / 2,197 Kg = 45.2 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 0.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.27
Metacentric height 2.7 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 12.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 82 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.26
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.41

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has low quarterdeck
Block coefficient: 0.515
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.85 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.05 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 6.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 23.16 ft / 7.06 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 23.16 ft / 7.06 m
- Mid (50 %): 23.16 ft / 7.06 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 14.73 ft / 4.49 m (23.16 ft / 7.06 m before break)
- Stern: 14.73 ft / 4.49 m
- Average freeboard: 21.90 ft / 6.67 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 132.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 138.0 %
Waterplane Area: 14,969 Square feet or 1,391 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 100 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 72 lbs/sq ft or 352 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.80
- Longitudinal: 3.35
- Overall: 0.92
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

27t misc is for torpedoes
21mm "other" denotes the 1t/mount additional weight of the hazemeyer gear.

4. The major refit of the Zeven Provincens. This is an expensive proposition, but the replacement vessels can’t be started until 1935, and so the earliest they would be replaced is 1938-9, by which time there will be significant performance degradation.

When duplicating RAM’s SS-1 sim of the ship to have a baseline, I presumed the customary beefy Dutch shells and used 1.1x norm (455kg) which gave a magazine of 110.

Weaponry-wise, the old casement 155mms are replaced with 152mm for supply simplification, and armored screens were added to prevent adjacent casements being destroyed with one hit. .
The old 88mm (3 twins, 2 singles on the drawing) are replaced with 5 twin 100mm with hoists added.. The single 40mm QFs removed and 8 new stabilized quad 40mm are added bracketing the fore & aft superstructure. A number of 20mms are added. The opportunity is taken to remove the underwater torpedo tubes.

The 8.9” upper belt was replaced by a thinner 150mm belt and the savings placed into a 40mm end belts.
Q1 an alternate is replacing the main belt with a 385mm monster…is this possible to manufacture in WW?
Q2 As an IC measure I’d like to specify that the existing main belt is replaced with one of identical thickness but improved metallurgy. However from an RP standpoint- I don’t see that making economic sense…unless I could reasonably pass it off as a means of keeping Belgian steelworks in production. Thoughts?

Life the other life extension refits- the “trimmings” are updated- fire suppression foam systems, fire retardant paints, new directors, reworked machinery, etc.

Zeven Provincien, Dutch Battlecruiser laid down 1915

Displacement:
25,887 t light; 27,103 t standard; 29,394 t normal; 31,227 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
694.98 ft / 688.98 ft x 90.22 ft x 29.04 ft (normal load)
211.83 m / 210.00 m x 27.50 m x 8.85 m

Armament:
8 - 12.20" / 310 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,003.10lbs / 455.00kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
14 - 5.98" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 107.15lbs / 48.60kg shells, 1925 Model
Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
on side ends, evenly spread
14 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
10 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns (5x2 guns), 30.51lbs / 13.84kg shells, 1915 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
32 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (8x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1933 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
20 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1928 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 9,897 lbs / 4,489 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 110

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 14.2" / 360 mm 426.51 ft / 130.00 m 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
Ends: 1.57" / 40 mm 262.47 ft / 80.00 m 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
Upper: 5.91" / 150 mm 426.51 ft / 130.00 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 95 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.57" / 40 mm 447.83 ft / 136.50 m 27.13 ft / 8.27 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.2" / 360 mm 7.87" / 200 mm 9.84" / 250 mm
2nd: 5.91" / 150 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
3rd: 1.18" / 30 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
4th: 0.39" / 10 mm 0.83" / 21 mm -
5th: 0.24" / 6 mm - -

- Armour deck: 3.15" / 80 mm, Conning tower: 1.97" / 50 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 100,362 shp / 74,870 Kw = 28.25 kts
Range 16,650nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 4,124 tons

Complement:
1,122 - 1,459

Cost:
£3.489 million / $13.955 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,143 tons, 3.9 %
Armour: 10,889 tons, 37.0 %
- Belts: 5,414 tons, 18.4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 708 tons, 2.4 %
- Armament: 2,151 tons, 7.3 %
- Armour Deck: 2,576 tons, 8.8 %
- Conning Tower: 40 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 3,802 tons, 12.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,974 tons, 33.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,506 tons, 11.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 80 tons, 0.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
38,660 lbs / 17,536 Kg = 42.5 x 12.2 " / 310 mm shells or 5.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
Metacentric height 5.5 ft / 1.7 m
Roll period: 16.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 57 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.47
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.05

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.570
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.64 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.25 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 28.87 ft / 8.80 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 18.18 ft / 5.54 m
- Mid (50 %): 18.18 ft / 5.54 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 18.18 ft / 5.54 m
- Stern: 18.18 ft / 5.54 m
- Average freeboard: 19.03 ft / 5.80 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 93.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 136.4 %
Waterplane Area: 44,204 Square feet or 4,107 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 160 lbs/sq ft or 780 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.13
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

20 tons for new improved directors & CIC
existing 50 tons for seaplanes
10 tons 'spare'.
21mm 'other' on 40mm is 1t/mount for hazemeyer gear

Quoted

Q1 an alternate is replacing the main belt with a 385mm monster…is this possible to manufacture in WW?

Can't see why not, the Canadians are manufacturing 16" belt armor for their new BBs, and Germany is planning 500 mm turret armor for the new BB just laid down. Other countries have also produced armor in this range. Seems more than a bit over-armored compared to gun-size, though.

You want to code your 152mm's as breech-loading, not quick-firing, a one-piece 152mm round would be far too heavy to handle.

On the snorkel, 10 tons seems reasonable to me, right now anyway.

I've been told on the 152mm before, just forgot to actually save that change.

On the belt- it was more a 3 part question.
1. While the ZPs are undergoing a major refit, is there anything more I should do?

2. That led to... well I can replace the main belt- taking advantage of the metallurgical advances since construction- but is that economically rationale, and does it make that much difference?

and then #3.
"Gee, so how thick could I make it if I replaced it...and is there factories that make armor that thick?"

So I think #2 is the more valid question.

Oh, and I should point out that the 100mm are supposed to be the 1927 DP mounts not the 1915 QFs.

Its not economically viable for a possible 5% -10% increase in quality [if that]. I'd say that those 14" plates are pushing things for the Dutch armour plate manufacturers. The US was limited to 12.5" quality plates, the UK 15" quality plates. Others I've no idea.

Those would be historical figures of course. If we consider Canada is producing 16" armor in WWTL then its safe to assume that the UK is too, most likely handing off the experience to Canada.

Oh, it is _possible_ to produce 16" armour plate but its not as high quality as the 15" plate. A 15" to 16" step should give 6.7% increase in effectiveness but because of hte lower quality this will be less.

RA, we don't want to go there. If we do, then we'll have to include things like national quality control and quality assurance standards, and we don't want to go there at all.

I know. We have to assume all are equal for fairness. I just like putting things into historical perspective.

RA's response quite nicely covered the aspects I was looking for-
comparitive effectiveness,
general economics
likely plant availability.

I believe the KGV OTL belt came from Skoda, while the IJN spent a huge amount for a new plant for Yamato's belt. For the rebuild of an old BB, I don't want to push things. I was just toying with the idea.

Thanks all.

Britain bought Czech armour that was of lower quality and thing plates i.e. 4" or so, for aircraft carriers and cruisers. The stuff used in the KGVs and Vanguards was British FH plate. This was a deliberate decision because of the higher quality plate (about 15-20% over US for FH) but the depression and 10-year rules caused the stripping of the armour industry and so when the need arose, more plate had to be bought from abroad.

Well, the British plates WERE good in battleship thicknesses, but as Nathan Okun points out, it was rather mediocre in cruiser thicknesses, because the face was too thin. The Witzkowitz armor purchased by Britain for use in cruisers was probably better than what would have been produced domestically, in that thickness of plate.

Similarly, the US class "A" armor that RA's mentioned at was not as good as the Britsh post-1930 cemented armor in battleship thicknesses, because it would scale more. But in 7" lower thicknesses, it was superior to anything else available.

Part of the reason the US class "A" armor wasn't as good as the British armor was that the armor specifications called for damaging the projectile, and the US at the time was producing the most damage-resistant projectiles in the world. In an attempt to meet the specifications, the armor makers made their plates faces thicker and thicker, which has negative impacts in other areas (notably scaling).

Quoted

it was superior to anything else available.

Apart from Italian Terni armour that was good for all the spectrum. The Italians seemed to be the only people who really grasped and understood the technology.

Quoted

damage-resistant projectiles in the world

The US projectiles will penetrate but not explode. The British ones are designed to explode if they penetrate. Then there are the shells developed towards the end of the war that could be rejected by the armour but carry on to explode. Trying to equate damage from kinetic and chemical means is difficult.

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Apart from Italian Terni armour that was good for all the spectrum. The Italians seemed to be the only people who really grasped and understood the technology.

At least for two plates. But then, given Italian quality control, or lack thereof, it might well have been an aberration, or specially selected plates that were not very representative of the plates produced for installation.

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The US projectiles will penetrate but not explode. The British ones are designed to explode if they penetrate. Then there are the shells developed towards the end of the war that could be rejected by the armour but carry on to explode. Trying to equate damage from kinetic and chemical means is difficult.

A projectile that doesn't penetrate doesn't do much damage to a protected space. A projectile that DOES penetrate, even if it doesn't explode, will do fairly serious damage to that space. An exploding projectile is certainly what you want, but in my opinion a dud that penetrates is worth more than a shell that would have exploded but broke up on the armor instead.