WesWorld

I can't find if Renown and Repulse have gotten any manner of refit in their WW Careers; If not (which I suspect), they're now a year overdue for one.

I remember someone suggesting at one point scrapping them and having newbuild construction as their replacements, but that's not really practical; They're not bad ships, and if the treaty collapses as it looks like it's heading towards, that's two perfectly good ships wasted.

So the real question becomes what kind of job is most appropriate; A quick and cheap no-frills refit, or a complete rebuild similar to what DFox recently did for Tiger, and the historical Renown.

A couple of notes; If Canada is going for a more expensive option, it'd include maintaining or increasing their speed, replacement of the 4" triples with the DP 5.5" Semi-auto twins that's been discussed elsewhere, and aircraft facilities. I'm open to suggestions regarding their armouring, because that's not really my strong suit.

I'd give them both a rebuild, increasing their deck armour as much as possible, upping the speed a bit, and replacing the cruddy 4" triples with 6x2 5.5" twins (8x2 if it'll fit, more BLAM is always a good thing as long as you're the one dispensing it ;-). Cross-deck cat and Walrus optional...

If it was up to me, I would give them a thorough rebuild. Theres not many ships that can match them, I would certainly keep them.

Armor wise their OK as far as belt goes. I would give them another 1.5" of deck armor. Also I would increase their speed by 1-2 kts. Plus changes to AC and secondaries.

Just chiming in, but a thorough rebuild would be best for both, methinks.

Needs improved 15 inch guns with a greater ability to elevate higher, otherwise R and R would get plastered by the S and G with there 11 inch guns.

Quoted

Originally posted by Ithekro
Needs improved 15 inch guns with a greater ability to elevate higher, otherwise R and R would get plastered by the S and G with there 11 inch guns.

Canada should talk with the Brits about their fancy new guns.

I could always try dredging this concept back up.

Nah, It'll end up looking like the historical Renown prolly.

I'd give her a rebuild as per the historical job with Renown. I'd try to squeeze in either an additional 2 twin 4.5" DP's or two more quad 2 pdr mounts.

I'd certainly fit the twin 5.5" as secondaries. Aircraft are optional I'd say.

I would add 1.5-2" of deck armour, the belts are fine but I would strenghten the torpedo defence.

I would think increasing elevation to 30 degrees would not be too hard.

I would not scrap them, they are still too useful, the high speed and those 15" are still deadly and building a new ship will cost so much more.

Give 'em a bulge and lose the underwater torpedo tubes. This will do nice things for stability and underwater protection, plus give room and tonnage for some more deck armor, bigger engines and bunkerage:

Refit & Repair, Canadian Battlecruisers laid down 1915 (Engine 1934)

Displacement:
32,400 t light; 33,882 t standard; 38,090 t normal; 41,456 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
787.70 ft / 787.70 ft x 90.00 ft (Bulges 100.00 ft) x 29.18 ft (normal load)
240.09 m / 240.09 m x 27.43 m (Bulges 30.48 m) x 8.89 m

Armament:
6 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1,687.50lbs / 765.44kg shells, 1915 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
16 - 5.50" / 140 mm guns (8x2 guns), 83.19lbs / 37.73kg shells, 1934 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
24 - 1.57" / 39.9 mm guns (6x4 guns), 1.93lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1934 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
24 - 0.79" / 20.1 mm guns (6x4 guns), 0.25lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1934 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 11,508 lbs / 5,220 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 110

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9.00" / 229 mm 620.00 ft / 188.98 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: 3.00" / 76 mm 167.70 ft / 51.11 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Upper: 6.00" / 152 mm 480.00 ft / 146.30 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 121 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
1.50" / 38 mm 480.00 ft / 146.30 m 26.00 ft / 7.92 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 10.0" / 254 mm 9.00" / 229 mm 7.50" / 191 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm - -

- Armour deck: 4.00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 10.00" / 254 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 184,691 shp / 137,779 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 10,000nm at 18.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 7,574 tons

Complement:
1,363 - 1,772

Cost:
£4.489 million / $17.956 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,439 tons, 3.8 %
Armour: 10,656 tons, 28.0 %
- Belts: 3,951 tons, 10.4 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 693 tons, 1.8 %
- Armament: 2,002 tons, 5.3 %
- Armour Deck: 3,766 tons, 9.9 %
- Conning Tower: 244 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 5,313 tons, 13.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 14,892 tons, 39.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,690 tons, 14.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 0.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
57,480 lbs / 26,073 Kg = 34.1 x 15.0 " / 381 mm shells or 7.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 5.2 ft / 1.6 m
Roll period: 18.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.74
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.21

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has low quarterdeck
Block coefficient: 0.580
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.88 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 28.07 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 32.00 ft / 9.75 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Mid (50 %): 30.00 ft / 9.14 m
- Quarterdeck (25 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m (30.00 ft / 9.14 m before break)
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 27.66 ft / 8.43 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 96.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 213.3 %
Waterplane Area: 50,888 Square feet or 4,728 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 116 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 186 lbs/sq ft or 909 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.41
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Drop a knot of speed, and pile on some more deck armour

With the number of 28-30 knot BBs showing up in the mid-to-late 30s, a 31kt BC won't have any effective speed advantage. 32 kts will be about the minimum speed for a useful battlecruiser by then, I think.

Quite. Look at what the Brits are laying down in 1932: 30 knot "BCs" (though they really look more like fast BBs). I'd expect 28 knots to be the speed floor for future capital ships, and R & R don't want to play with that sort of ship, they give up too much armor and too many guns.

It's not a bad idea to consider replacement options. If you were to scrap them both, the recycled scrap, plus the tonnage you didn't spend on rebuilds, would be enough to pay for a new Nile class ship.

I'd say replace the Canadian Express with a pair of Inviincibles, but that's just me.

Modernisation along the lines of Renown historically would be the best bet. Maybe not use the 5.5" gun. Duple 4"/45 would be better for AA and you can fit far more in.

Yes, but would the Admiralty be willing to give up the A/S punch? Also standardising on the 5.5 helps the quartermasters...

Depending on how involved Canada wants to get, I'd say they're potentially useful ships even if the treaty collapses. A major rebuild is a big undertaking, but the 15" gun is pretty destructive, and if the treaty does collapse, there will be a lag until new construction when these two will still be useful against capital ships. Even after that point, they'll be able to smash any cruiser with ease. They might fill the raider or carrier escort role rather well for Canada. And that holds true even if the treaty survives. If you're going the rebuild route, you might change the stern as well as the bow. IIRC, the Japanese historically added length to their ships sterns to help improve speed.

However, that could be a significant investement, so Rocky's position bears some strong consideration. A new ship(s) might be a better use of resources. Are they eligible for foreign sale? They have a lot of potential and firepower, and I could see them easily fitting into several WW navies. So if you could get a better-than-scrap price for them then, as Rocky suggested combined with the cost of the rebuilds themselves you might be nearer a new ship.

My thoughts,

Big Rich

Under the Treaty, capital ships are not eligible for sale until they're at least 20 years old (from their completion date).

Didn't the Kongo's historical rebuild involve cutting them in half and adding a section, too?