WesWorld

Russian yards will be busy, busy, busy next year!

The first project is a refit to the 24 Orphey class destroyers still in service. The main changes are replacing the forward 100mm gun with a 130mm, replacing the 76mm AA gun mount with a quad 37mm, and replacing one of the aft 100mm mounts with additional 37mm AA guns, replacement of her torpedo tubes, and refurbishment of most other ship systems in order to prolong their service life. After their refits, they will be reassigned from the Northern Fleet to the Black Sea Fleet in view of their short range. The Novik class destroyers now serving with the Black Sea Fleet will be transferred to the Baltic Fleet. The Bucharskiy class destroyers now serving in the Baltic Sea, Black Sea, and Northern Fleets will be removed from service in view of their age and unsuitability for reconstruction, and scrapped.

Here are her new stats:

Orphey class refitted, laid down 1915

Length, 98.0 m x Beam, 9.3 m x Depth, 3.0 m
1378 tonnes normal displacement (1288 tonnes standard)

Main battery: 1 x 13.0-cm
Secondary battery: 2 x 10.0-cm
AA battery: 8 x 3.7-cm
Light battery: 4 x 1.3-cm

Weight of broadside: 61 kg

9 TT, 53.0 cm

Hull unarmored
Conning tower, 2.5 cm

Battery armor:
Main, 2.5 cm shields
AA, 2.5 cm shields

Maximum speed for 28168 shaft kw = 33.00 knots
Approximate cruising radius, 1700 nm / 15 knots

Typical complement: 113-147


Estimated cost, $996,000 (£249,000)

Remarks:

Caution: Hull structure is subject to strain in open-sea
conditions.

Caution: Magazines and engineering spaces are very cramped,
and lack adequate watertight subdivision.

Oil firing.

Ship has slow, easy roll; a good, steady gun platform.

Good seaboat; rides out heavy weather easily.

Cramped ship; poor crew accommodation, limited working space.


Distribution of weights:
Percent
normal
displacement:

Armament ......................... 17 tonnes = 1 pct
Armor, total ..................... 6 tonnes = 0 pct

C.T. 3 tonnes = 0 pct
Armament 3 tonnes = 0 pct

Machinery ........................ 810 tonnes = 59 pct
Hull and fittings; equipment ..... 396 tonnes = 29 pct
Fuel, ammunition, stores ......... 130 tonnes = 9 pct
Miscellaneous weights ............ 20 tonnes = 1 pct
-----
1378 tonnes = 100 pct

Estimated metacentric height, 0.4 m

Displacement summary:

Light ship: 1249 tonnes
Standard displacement: 1288 tonnes
Normal service: 1378 tonnes
Full load: 1445 tonnes

Loading submergence 578 tonnes/metre

+++++++++++++++++++++++++


Estimated overall survivability and seakeeping ability:

Relative margin of stability: 1.23

Shellfire needed to sink: 152 kg = 5.0 x 13.0-cm shells
(Approximates weight of penetrating
shell hits needed to sink ship,
not counting critical hits)

Torpedoes needed to sink: 0.2
(Approximates number of 'typical'
torpedo hits needed to sink ship)

Relative steadiness as gun platform, 70 percent
(50 percent is 'average')

Relative rocking effect from firing to beam, 0.22

Relative quality as a seaboat: 1.20

+++++++++++++++++++++++++


Hull form characteristics:

Block coefficient: 0.50
Sharpness coefficient: 0.33
Hull speed coefficient 'M' = 8.83
'Natural speed' for length = 17.9 knots
Power going to wave formation
at top speed: 71 percent


Estimated hull characteristics and strength:

Relative underwater volume absorbed by
magazines and engineering spaces: 200 percent

Relative accommodation and working space: 65 percent


Displacement factor: 46 percent
(Displacement relative to loading factors)


Relative cross-sectional hull strength: 0.50
(Structure weight per square
metre of hull surface: 160 kg)

Relative longitudinal hull strength: 1.59
(for 5.10 m average freeboard;
freeboard adjustment +1.99 m)

Relative composite hull strength: 0.56

+++++++++++++++++++++++++


[Machine-readable parameters: Spring Style v. 1.2.1]

321.44 x 30.50 x 9.84; 16.73 -- Dimensions
0.50 -- Block coefficient
1915 -- Year laid down
33.00 / 1700 / 15.00; Oil-fired turbine or equivalent -- Speed / radius / cruise
20 tons -- Miscellaneous weights
++++++++++
1 x 5.12; 0 -- Main battery; turrets
Central positioning of guns
Gun-shields
:
2 x 3.94; 0 -- Secondary battery; turrets
:
8 x 1.46 -- Tertiary (QF/AA) battery
Gun-shields
:
4 x 0.51 -- Fourth (light) battery
9 / 0 / 20.87 -- TT / submerged / size
++++++++++
0.00 -- No belt armor
0.00 / 0.98 -- Deck / CT
0.98 / 0.00 / 0.98 / 0.00 -- Battery armor


(Note: For portability, values are stored in Anglo-American units)


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Her original stats:

Russian Orphey class destroyers, laid down 1915
Length, 98.0 m x Beam, 9.3 m x Depth, 3.0 m
1378 tonnes normal displacement (1288 tonnes standard)
Main battery: 4 x 10.0-cm
Secondary battery: 1 x 7.6-cm
AA battery: 4 x 1.3-cm
Weight of broadside: 62 kg
9 TT, 45.0 cm
20 tons depth charges
Hull unarmored
Battery armor:
Main, 2.5 cm shields / secondary, 2.5 cm shields

Maximum speed for 28168 shaft kw = 33.00 knots
Approximate cruising radius, 1700 nm / 15 knots
Typical complement: 113-147

Estimated cost, $997,000 (£249,000)
Remarks:
Caution: Hull structure is subject to strain in open-sea
conditions.
Caution: Magazines and engineering spaces are very cramped,
and lack adequate watertight subdivision.
Oil firing.
Ship has slow, easy roll; a good, steady gun platform.
Good seaboat; rides out heavy weather easily.

Distribution of weights:
Percent
normal
displacement:
Armament ......................... 17 tonnes = 1 pct
Armor, total ..................... 6 tonnes = 0 pct
Armament 6 tonnes = 0 pct
Machinery ........................ 810 tonnes = 59 pct
Hull and fittings; equipment ..... 396 tonnes = 29 pct
Fuel, ammunition, stores ......... 130 tonnes = 9 pct
Miscellaneous weights ............ 20 tonnes = 1 pct
-----
1378 tonnes = 100 pct
Estimated metacentric height, 0.4 m
Displacement summary:
Light ship: 1249 tonnes
Standard displacement: 1288 tonnes
Normal service: 1378 tonnes
Full load: 1445 tonnes
Loading submergence 578 tonnes/metre
+++++++++++++++++++++++++

Estimated overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Relative margin of stability: 1.28
Shellfire needed to sink: 155 kg = 11.2 x 10.0-cm shells
(Approximates weight of penetrating
shell hits needed to sink ship,
not counting critical hits)
Torpedoes needed to sink: 0.2
(Approximates number of 'typical'
torpedo hits needed to sink ship)
Relative steadiness as gun platform, 70 percent
(50 percent is 'average')
Relative rocking effect from firing to beam, 0.21
Relative quality as a seaboat: 1.21
+++++++++++++++++++++++++

Hull form characteristics:
Block coefficient: 0.50
Sharpness coefficient: 0.33
Hull speed coefficient 'M' = 8.83
'Natural speed' for length = 17.9 knots
Power going to wave formation
at top speed: 71 percent

Estimated hull characteristics and strength:
Relative underwater volume absorbed by
magazines and engineering spaces: 200 percent
Relative accommodation and working space: 95 percent

Displacement factor: 46 percent
(Displacement relative to loading factors)

Relative cross-sectional hull strength: 0.50
(Structure weight per square
metre of hull surface: 160 kg)
Relative longitudinal hull strength: 1.58
(for 5.10 m average freeboard;
freeboard adjustment +1.99 m)
Relative composite hull strength: 0.56
+++++++++++++++++++++++++

[Machine-readable parameters: Spring Style v. 1.2.1]
321.44 x 30.50 x 9.84; 16.73 -- Dimensions
0.50 -- Block coefficient
1915 -- Year laid down
33.00 / 1700 / 15.00; Oil-fired turbine or equivalent -- Speed / radius / cruise
20 tons -- Miscellaneous weights
++++++++++
4 x 3.94; 0 -- Main battery; turrets
Central positioning of guns
Gun-shields
:
1 x 2.99; 0 -- Secondary battery; turrets
Gun-shields
:
4 x 0.51 -- Tertiary (QF/AA) battery
:
0 -- No fourth (light) battery
9 / 0 / 17.72 -- TT / submerged / size
++++++++++
0.00 -- No belt armor
0.00 / 0.00 -- Deck / CT
0.98 / 0.98 / 0.00 / 0.00 -- Battery armor

(Note: For portability, values are stored in Anglo-American units)

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Outstanding characteristic of Bars class is her long range.

Bars class, Russian Fleet Submarine laid down 1932

Displacement:
913 t light; 942 t standard; 1,286 t normal; 1,561 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
196.85 ft / 196.85 ft x 27.40 ft x 17.39 ft (normal load)
60.00 m / 60.00 m x 8.35 m x 5.30 m

Armament:
1 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns in single mounts, 37.48lbs / 17.00kg shells, 1932 Model
Dual purpose gun in deck mount
on centreline forward
1 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1932 Model
Anti-aircraft gun in deck mount
on side amidships
1 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1932 Model
Machine gun in deck mount
on side aft
1 - 0.30" / 7.6 mm guns in single mounts, 0.01lbs / 0.00kg shells, 1932 Model
Machine gun in deck mount
on centreline amidships
Weight of broadside 39 lbs / 18 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
8 - 20.9" / 530 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion generators plus batteries,
Electric motors, 1 shaft, 1,869 shp / 1,394 Kw = 15.00 kts
Range 39,900nm at 8.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 619 tons

Complement:
106 - 139

Cost:
£0.196 million / $0.783 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 4 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 55 tons, 4.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 539 tons, 41.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 373 tons, 29.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 315 tons, 24.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
477 lbs / 217 Kg = 15.6 x 3.9 " / 100 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.01
Metacentric height 0.7 ft / 0.2 m
Roll period: 13.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 0 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.480
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.19 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 14.03 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Stern: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Average freeboard: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 116.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 0.0 %
Waterplane Area: 3,380 Square feet or 314 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 281 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 102 lbs/sq ft or 500 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 2.73
- Longitudinal: 2.77
- Overall: 2.74
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is extremely poor
Ship has quick, lively roll, not a steady gun platform
Caution: Lacks seaworthiness - very limited seakeeping ability


23,700nm at 10.00 kts
15,000 nm at 12 kts

Operational depth - 273 ft/83 m
Emergency depth - 437 ft/133 m
Crush depth - 682 ft/208 m

This class will conduct coastal patrol and defense missions.

Bezmolvniy, Russian Coastal Submarine laid down 1932

Displacement:
285 t light; 293 t standard; 329 t normal; 358 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
131.89 ft / 131.89 ft x 18.04 ft x 11.15 ft (normal load)
40.20 m / 40.20 m x 5.50 m x 3.40 m

Armament:
1 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1932 Model
Anti-aircraft gun in deck mount
on centreline forward
1 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1932 Model
Machine gun in deck mount
on centreline amidships
Weight of broadside 2 lbs / 1 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 2,000
4 - 20.9" / 530 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion generators plus batteries,
Electric motors, 1 shaft, 919 shp / 685 Kw = 15.00 kts
Range 3,200nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 64 tons

Complement:
38 - 50

Cost:
£0.063 million / $0.253 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 0 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 27 tons, 8.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 178 tons, 53.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 44 tons, 13.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 80 tons, 24.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
48 lbs / 22 Kg = 30.8 x 1.5 " / 37 mm shells or 0.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.00
Metacentric height 0.4 ft / 0.1 m
Roll period: 12.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 0 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.434
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.31 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 11.48 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Stern: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Average freeboard: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 185.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 0.0 %
Waterplane Area: 1,424 Square feet or 132 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 242 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 80 lbs/sq ft or 392 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 3.29
- Longitudinal: 3.28
- Overall: 3.28
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is extremely poor
Ship has quick, lively roll, not a steady gun platform
Caution: Lacks seaworthiness - very limited seakeeping ability

9,000nm @ 8kts
5,200nm @ 10kts

Operational Depth - 328 ft/100 m
Emergency Depth - 525 ft/160 m
Crush Depth - 820 ft/250 m

On the subs, how much of the miscellaneous weight is for ballast tanks and how much for reload torpedoes?

And your intel types to worry about.

They do have quite a lot of misc weight for their displacement though...

Quoted

Russian yards will be busy, busy, busy next year!

Well, the government needs to keep its people busy, right?

Quoted

They do have quite a lot of misc weight for their displacement though...

Yes and that results in stabilities very close to 1. Personally I'd like to have a bit more stability on my subs, but I rarely succeed. For that reason, I used the weight of the torpedo bulkhead to sim the torpedoes aboard the midget submarine rather than miscellaneous weights.
Impressive range for the Bars class. You plan on hunting enemy ships around Antarctica?

Their range permits relatively high speed during transit to their assigned objectives, and a useful time on station once they arrive. It also reduces the need to resupply subs on station, which strikes the Russian Naval Staff as somewhat problematic. Resupplying simply by prearranging time and location dosen't account for possible changes in circumstances, while using radio to get supplier and supplied to the same place at the same time compromises operational security, by permitting RDF and by giving enemy cryptologists more message traffic to analyze. So a long range seems the best answer to the Russian Naval Staff.

Interesting idea about using a torpedo bulkhead to sim reloads. Its true that they're below the waterline under the conditions SS sims subs at. Might have to try that...

Yes, simming torpedo reloads using a torpedo bulkhead definitely improves stability! I'd be reluctant to adopt this method though, because it might over-play the capabilities of subs. The effect on stability is that remarkable.

Now you know why I used it on the midget submarine. If I had used miscellaneous weights for that, stability would have been about 0.85 or so. Actually I only used on that particular design due to its small size and not on the other sub designs (I use miscellaneous weights for those designs to sim the torpedoes).

One other thing I like to do is to use ends armor on a number of my carrier designs to sim the spare planes. 26x26 feet ends armor of 1 inch thickness gives me 25.012 tons. This way the number of inches of ends armor indicates the number of spare planes. Easy way to add or subtract spares when needed without having to mess around with the miscellaneous weights number for the "standard plane weight".
Differences between the designs is minimal as can see from the data below which is affected by the different ways used.
Call it the "Lazy Man's Approach". :-)


This is part of the data of a 27,000 ton (standard) carrier using the ends armor (15 spare planes = 15 inches at 26x26 feet):

Quoted

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
42,442 lbs / 19,251 Kg = 1,201.6 x 4.1 " / 105 mm shells or 6.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
Metacentric height 4.5 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 17.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 53 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.03
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.07


Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 162.1 %
Waterplane Area: 42,712 Square feet or 3,968 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 131 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 123 lbs/sq ft or 599 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.00
- Longitudinal: 1.00
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

And this using miscellaneous weights (15 spare planes = 375 tons):

Quoted

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
41,527 lbs / 18,836 Kg = 1,175.7 x 4.1 " / 105 mm shells or 6.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
Metacentric height 4.5 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 17.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 55 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.03
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.10


Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 100.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 162.1 %
Waterplane Area: 42,712 Square feet or 3,968 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 131 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 123 lbs/sq ft or 599 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.00
- Longitudinal: 1.03
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Does SS take stores into account? While all these long ranges and time on station is fine, will there be enough food and water for the crew?

SS does take stores into account. Misc. weight for more is useful but submarines are volume limited, not weight.

I'd worry about the low speed of these submarines. They can't keep up with or overtake more modern (post 1900) merchant vessels. Your "slow" convoys are about 9/10knts and "fast" convoys about 15knts.

According to my sources it is 6/7kn to 10kn but you´re right anyway: those subs seem to be slow.

Is it generally agreed to use bulkheads instead of misc weight? I have to admit I heard of this the first time...

Nordmarks full size treaty subs, the S class of 1927 can do 20knots, while all proposed classes of subs of 900t and less have a maximum speed of 15knots, though this may alter as they are not due to be built for another couple of years

Quoted

Is it generally agreed to use bulkheads instead of misc weight? I have to admit I heard of this the first time...

Best just to use that spreadsheet instead. SS just doesn't do submarines well.