WesWorld

Dutch cruiser “B” tonnage.

Basically I’m considering keeping the eight Breda and Wadden Einlanden classes as my 8,000s and replacing the other 16 light cruisers with 6,000 tons vessels, which would use my allotment. One variable is if I want to expend some of that tonnage on destroyer leaders (which would be exchanged 2:1 for 6,000 tonners). Another is if I do wish to build a 6” armed CA ala Kometstar to serve as a heavy stiffener to the cruiser force.

At the current time, CLAA cruisers are not seen as needed by the Dutch, so that design will wait.

Three vessels for consideration and comments.

1. Roode Haes – “Red Hare” – Destroyer leader. I note the French Volta class fit twin 5.5” mounts on a 41’ beam, but felt twin 6” on a 36’ beam might be pushing it, so I went with the layout La Fantastque had.

2. Windhond is what shall hopefully be the standard CL. She seems adequate.

3. Kometstar II is a 10:1 L:B iteration of the fabulous 18x6” that I will probably have to learn how to draw in order to show how it may work. I’m just going from ISE’s deckplan for turret arrangements.

Roode Haes, Netherlands Contre-Torpilleur laid down 1934

Displacement:
3,009 t light; 3,145 t standard; 3,500 t normal; 3,784 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
445.41 ft / 433.07 ft x 36.09 ft x 17.98 ft (normal load)
135.76 m / 132.00 m x 11.00 m x 5.48 m

Armament:
5 - 5.98" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 110.23lbs / 50.00kg shells, 1934 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, majority aft, 3 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (1x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1934 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mount
on centreline amidships, all raised guns - superfiring
8 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1934 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1934 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
4 - 0.52" / 13.2 mm guns in single mounts, 0.07lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1934 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, all forward, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 577 lbs / 262 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
12 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 1.97" / 50 mm 433.07 ft / 132.00 m 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.46" / 37 mm 0.20" / 5 mm 0.79" / 20 mm
2nd: 0.59" / 15 mm - -
3rd: 0.59" / 15 mm - -
4th: 0.59" / 15 mm - -
5th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -

- Armour deck: 0.79" / 20 mm, Conning tower: 1.97" / 50 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 53,170 shp / 39,665 Kw = 34.00 kts
Range 5,500nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 639 tons

Complement:
226 - 295

Cost:
£1.799 million / $7.197 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 70 tons, 2.0 %
Armour: 539 tons, 15.4 %
- Belts: 362 tons, 10.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 18 tons, 0.5 %
- Armour Deck: 149 tons, 4.3 %
- Conning Tower: 10 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 1,445 tons, 41.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 881 tons, 25.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 491 tons, 14.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 75 tons, 2.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,068 lbs / 485 Kg = 10.0 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
Metacentric height 1.4 ft / 0.4 m
Roll period: 12.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 61 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.85
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.21

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.436
Length to Beam Ratio: 12.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 23.61 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 4.00 ft / 1.22 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 22.90 ft / 6.98 m
- Forecastle (18 %): 21.59 ft / 6.58 m
- Mid (50 %): 13.62 ft / 4.15 m
- Quarterdeck (18 %): 13.62 ft / 4.15 m
- Stern: 13.62 ft / 4.15 m
- Average freeboard: 16.40 ft / 5.00 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 151.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 63.4 %
Waterplane Area: 10,238 Square feet or 951 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 83 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 40 lbs/sq ft or 194 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.69
- Overall: 0.57
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Intended as destroyer leaders and loosely based on the French Volta class.


Windhond, Netherlands Light Cruiser laid down 1932

Displacement:
5,995 t light; 6,270 t standard; 7,469 t normal; 8,428 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
575.38 ft / 557.74 ft x 53.15 ft x 18.37 ft (normal load)
175.37 m / 170.00 m x 16.20 m x 5.60 m

Armament:
8 - 5.98" / 152 mm guns (4x2 guns), 110.23lbs / 50.00kg shells, 1932 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1932 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side ends, evenly spread
16 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (2x8 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1932 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
16 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (4x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1932 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
20 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1932 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,052 lbs / 477 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
12 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.15" / 80 mm 426.51 ft / 130.00 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 118 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 3.15" / 80 mm 1.18" / 30 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
2nd: 0.59" / 15 mm 0.20" / 5 mm 0.59" / 15 mm
3rd: 0.59" / 15 mm - -
4th: 0.59" / 15 mm - -
5th: 0.31" / 8 mm - -

- Armour deck: 1.26" / 32 mm, Conning tower: 3.15" / 80 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 78,599 shp / 58,635 Kw = 34.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,158 tons

Complement:
401 - 522

Cost:
£2.921 million / $11.682 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 128 tons, 1.7 %
Armour: 1,187 tons, 15.9 %
- Belts: 535 tons, 7.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 156 tons, 2.1 %
- Armour Deck: 470 tons, 6.3 %
- Conning Tower: 26 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 2,320 tons, 31.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,285 tons, 30.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,474 tons, 19.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 75 tons, 1.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
5,370 lbs / 2,436 Kg = 50.1 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 1.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.19
Metacentric height 2.7 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 13.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.44
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.12

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.480
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.49 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.91 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 63
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 23.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.08 ft / 7.95 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 25.85 ft / 7.88 m (17.85 ft / 5.44 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 17.85 ft / 5.44 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 17.85 ft / 5.44 m
- Stern: 17.85 ft / 5.44 m
- Average freeboard: 19.47 ft / 5.93 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 115.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 123.3 %
Waterplane Area: 20,165 Square feet or 1,873 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 68 lbs/sq ft or 330 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.71
- Longitudinal: 1.19
- Overall: 0.75
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Armor is 40mm over vitals. None on ends.


Kometstar II, Netherlands Light Cruiser laid down 1932

Displacement:
10,005 t light; 10,484 t standard; 12,110 t normal; 13,411 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
681.95 ft / 666.01 ft x 66.60 ft x 20.51 ft (normal load)
207.86 m / 203.00 m x 20.30 m x 6.25 m

Armament:
18 - 5.98" / 152 mm guns (6x3 guns), 110.23lbs / 50.00kg shells, 1932 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, evenly spread, 3 raised mounts
12 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns (6x2 guns), 30.51lbs / 13.84kg shells, 1932 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side ends, evenly spread
16 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (4x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1932 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1932 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
4 - 0.52" / 13.2 mm guns in single mounts, 0.07lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1932 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 2,386 lbs / 1,082 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 170
12 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.33" / 110 mm 432.91 ft / 131.95 m 10.66 ft / 3.25 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 4.92" / 125 mm 1.97" / 50 mm 3.15" / 80 mm
2nd: 1.18" / 30 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
3rd: 0.59" / 15 mm - -
4th: 0.59" / 15 mm - -
5th: 0.59" / 15 mm - -

- Armour deck: 1.86" / 47 mm, Conning tower: 4.33" / 110 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 78,409 shp / 58,493 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,927 tons

Complement:
576 - 750

Cost:
£4.177 million / $16.707 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 291 tons, 2.4 %
Armour: 2,389 tons, 19.7 %
- Belts: 830 tons, 6.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 483 tons, 4.0 %
- Armour Deck: 1,027 tons, 8.5 %
- Conning Tower: 49 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 2,314 tons, 19.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,960 tons, 41.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,105 tons, 17.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 0.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
18,068 lbs / 8,196 Kg = 168.6 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 2.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
Metacentric height 3.5 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 14.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.46
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.21

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.466
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 29.57 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 18.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 28.87 ft / 8.80 m
- Forecastle (18 %): 23.62 ft / 7.20 m (18.37 ft / 5.60 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 18.37 ft / 5.60 m
- Quarterdeck (18 %): 18.37 ft / 5.60 m
- Stern: 18.37 ft / 5.60 m
- Average freeboard: 19.66 ft / 5.99 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 82.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 147.3 %
Waterplane Area: 29,798 Square feet or 2,768 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 129 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 111 lbs/sq ft or 543 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.12
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Deck armor is concentrated in a 60mm citadel. Actual armor figure entered is 47.3mm.

General deck plan is that of the the historical Ise, which fit 6xtwin 14" on a 640' hull.
Secondary mounts are expected to 4 bracketing forward superstructure, 2 bracketing rear. Mounts are enclosed vs. muzzle blast.

OMG! Old Dutch!! :-)

For that one, I would use a lighter caliber gun like the Italian "Capitani Romani" class has which would give you something like a slightly oversized Fletcher class. But that is just me.

The conccern I'd have about "red Hare" is that it's very vulnerable to air attack, since it's got nothing heavier than a 40mm that can usefully reply to an air attack. I'm also unsure if 34 knots is the right speed, if your CLs are going to be 34 knots as well.

1st is a bit slow. I'd aim for 36-37knts which is easily possible on that size of hull. The armour would be of limited value.

Windhond is structurally weak, 0.90 at least, preferrably 1.00+ for a proper blue water cruiser.

The last is just wierd and most likely won't fit.

An example of a large DD/DDL type vessel that HDW has come up with for a prospective customer:

Export Destroyer laid down 1932

Displacement:
2,848 t light; 2,976 t standard; 3,288 t normal; 3,538 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
483.34 ft / 465.88 ft x 44.29 ft x 13.94 ft (normal load)
147.32 m / 142.00 m x 13.50 m x 4.25 m

Armament:
6 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (3x2 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1932 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
4 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 20.79lbs / 9.43kg shells, 1932 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all aft, all raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1932 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
8 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1932 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 715 lbs / 324 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
10 - 21.0" / 533 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.76" / 70 mm 1.57" / 40 mm 2.76" / 70 mm
2nd: 1.18" / 30 mm 0.79" / 20 mm -
3rd: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.79" / 20 mm -
4th: 0.39" / 10 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -

- Conning tower: 2.76" / 70 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 60,758 shp / 45,325 Kw = 36.00 kts
Range 5,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 562 tons

Complement:
216 - 282

Cost:
£1.826 million / $7.303 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 89 tons, 2.7 %
Armour: 80 tons, 2.4 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 66 tons, 2.0 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 13 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 1,620 tons, 49.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,018 tons, 31.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 440 tons, 13.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 40 tons, 1.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
909 lbs / 413 Kg = 8.8 x 5.9 " / 150 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.39
Metacentric height 2.6 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 11.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.41
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.400
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.52 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.86 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 63 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 1.64 ft / 0.50 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 27.40 ft / 8.35 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 20.83 ft / 6.35 m
- Mid (40 %): 20.83 ft / 6.35 m (13.94 ft / 4.25 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 13.94 ft / 4.25 m
- Stern: 13.94 ft / 4.25 m
- Average freeboard: 17.22 ft / 5.25 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 181.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 124.5 %
Waterplane Area: 13,182 Square feet or 1,225 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 74 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 45 lbs/sq ft or 218 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.19
- Overall: 0.54
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

10 tons reserved for depth charges and rails

30 tons reserved for mines and growth

One of the 88mm mounts superfires over Ceasar mount, while the other superfires over the rear torpedo banks.

Comments :

1. Old Dutch : Can't tell new Dutch from old, but have amassed some historic fleet lists from the Anglo-Dutch wars, which serve for a source of ship and commander names.
2. Lighter gun- wise or (probably) not, I don't want my 125mm, am trying to phase out the 130mm, and I do want the heavier 152mm.
3. Lack of heavy AA- point taken. However as a DDL, there would be >20x 100-125mm DP in the squadron and if singled out the 40mm should be fine.
4. Yes, light cruiser speed is to be 34 knots. Dominant destroyer speeds are the Z44's 34knts and the Z53's 35kts. 34kts seems adequate. What would 36-37 knots buy a DDL if faster than it's DDs?
5. The design rules for gentlemen indicate the 0.75 is acceptable for up to 6,000. I do not need 0.9, or 1.0 and do not wish to handicap myself.
6. Armor - As most destroyer rounds are not AP or even SAP, the armor should be adequate, though the weathershields on the mounts are not particularly robust.
7. Weird is ok Not fitting is not ok, but I thought it would come down to 'show me' anyhow.
8. I like the export DDL, interesting alternative worth consideration.

Quoted

5. The design rules for gentlemen indicate the 0.75 is acceptable for up to 6,000. I do not need 0.9, or 1.0 and do not wish to handicap myself.

Well actually that's been changed; the DRfG thread just hasn't been updated...

Arrggh, small hull and twin 150mm guns. Not particulary succesful I think due to large round weight and rapidly pitching ship.

Quoted

4. Yes, light cruiser speed is to be 34 knots. Dominant destroyer speeds are the Z44's 34knts and the Z53's 35kts. 34kts seems adequate. What would 36-37 knots buy a DDL if faster than it's DDs?

Unfortunately its just impossible to have the 41knts speed of the Romani, but 37knts is easily possible. Able to get you into position quicker, extract you from unpleasant situations, and most importantly its basically impossible to get hit with torpedoes.

Quoted

5. The design rules for gentlemen indicate the 0.75 is acceptable for up to 6,000. I do not need 0.9, or 1.0 and do not wish to handicap myself.

They should specify 0.90

1.00 is better for a bluewater ship.

Quoted

Unfortunately its just impossible to have the 41knts speed of the Romani

Then wouldn't that make Romani impossible?

1. 37 knots- if I was intending on operating squadrons of DDLs, I could see how this would apply. However I'm not seeing the benefits when operating with a flotilla of 34-45knt destroyers. I would think operating as a unit would be more important. Would having one faster vessel be worth the design penalties for higher speed?

2. If the design rule has changed, could somebody point me to the thread or what it was called, or keywords I can search for? A search for "0.9" wasn't useful.

3. The German design isn't terribly different than the Volta, which had twin 140mms as I remember the deck plan. Jane's indicates the La Fantasque had good seakeeping but has no notation either way on the Volta. Seems like it should be ok.

The Updates to Design Rules thread is here.

How successful the various heavily gunned destroyers would be would depend on any number of factors. But yes, the large destroyer mentioned in this thread is rather based on the French Mogador. except with German armaments.

Thanks Hrolf,

I guess it's back to the drawing boards. I went through a number of drafts of 5600-6000 ton vessels, but all ~0.75...Argh.

I think trimming 10 tons light off of Hare will be an easier task.

I remain curious as to what folks think about the tactical value of having the DDL signficantly faster than it's DD flotilla vs the design penalty that entails.

.
.
.
I suppose getting a license to build copies of RSAN Arion won't work as a 'legal' dodge?

Building cruisers in Chile, away from the treaty could be an option.

Quoted

Originally posted by Swamphen

Quoted

5. The design rules for gentlemen indicate the 0.75 is acceptable for up to 6,000. I do not need 0.9, or 1.0 and do not wish to handicap myself.

Well actually that's been changed; the DRfG thread just hasn't been updated...

Please re-check and tell if it´s okay.

Looks OK now.

Kirk:

On the DDL, the one advantage I might see for higher-than-DD speed is being able to manuever within a formation of destroyers at full speed. For example, positioning itself to take on enemy screening forces while your destroyers charge in.

Are Dutch CL to be tasked with screening capital units, and if so, do your planned designs meet those needs?

The cruiser picture has been muddled as I am unsure what RAM was planning, don’t have a great deal of allowable tonnage…. and until I generated a number of designs I didn’t know what options various mixes of builds would provide.

For cruiser assignments, generally I expect two squadrons of CLs to be tasked with screening the two capital ship divisions, a third squadron split to screen the carriers which are expected to act in close support of the capital ships. That’s about 12 light cruisers. I’d like to have at least two independent light cruiser squadrons as well- for a minimum of 20. The heavies can move between the capital ships and independent status.

Generally speaking I’d like the ships to be fairly interchangeable so I can flex the squadrons more. I was expecting that as the construction program went along, plans might change to have anti-aircraft cruisers, or perhaps a squadron of slower but heavier gunned CLs (or those 10,000 ton ones) designed to be handcuffed to the CAs / BBs.

I was considering fielding 8 DDLs to front various destroyer squadrons or a further independent squadron, which looked doable with the 3,000 and 6,000 ton vessels (8x8k, 12x6k, 8x3k). The However the difference between 0.75 and 0.9 is enough that the revised 6000 ton vessels don’t seem adequate. While I may try some 7000 ton designs to allow 24 CLs, right now it looks like I will be doing 20 x 8,000 ton cruisers.

My recollection is that the RAM-era Dutch had some frustration having their CVX sunk in exercises by opposing force cruisers; if this concern has extended into the "present", 1 CL per CV may seem to be a bit low. But adding four more CL to fleet unit escort then cuts you down to about four CL for independent duty, which really isn't a lot at all. You'll have a bit of a numbers versus need dilemma to resolve.

An 8,000 t CL will most likely be a very capable ship, but it might also be in excess of what you actually need for a given mission. It may also cause issues for your infrastructure - if everything in your roster from CL to BB requires a class three drydock, and you've only got one of those in the NEI, it presents a serious logistical chokepoint. It may be worth having two different classes of CL (fleet screening and indy ops) if the sacrifice in all-round specialization means you can get by with a smaller (less expensive) ship that can fit the pair of class two docks also in the NEI.

Any need for specialized cruiser-minelayers?

Any oppotunity to import tonnage from the CV or DD allocations?

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Originally posted by The Rock Doctor
You'll have a bit of a numbers versus need dilemma to resolve.

So I've noticed

There was a AANM excercise where Hund apparently got sunk, and in the last Tri-annual the Hund got caught by surface forces again. The Eendrachts are faster, heavier armed and armored than Hund .At the current time the expectation is that the carriers will not be far from the capital ships and can flee in that general direction, thus a couple of CLs can act as a rear guard.

As Dutch carrier doctrine evolves, and carrier aircraft, the indep squadrons could be tapped for escorts.

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It may be worth having two different classes of CL (fleet screening and indy ops).

You are correct that a mix might have merit, which is why I had been exploring the smaller cruisers in the first place. I had some minimum benchmarks on gun/armor/speed that I wanted to hit, and at 0.9 I'm not hitting them on the 6,000 standard ton hull. I'm still playing with those benchmarks some to see if I can manage adequate smaller ships.

Currently the 'big' CLs, the Bredas and Wadden Einlandens fit in the Class 2 docks, and some of the CL designs keep this. I often find myself wishing a couple docks were somewhere else than the Netherlands. As it is, I keep the Class 3 drydock free most of the time in case of need.

As for cruiser minelayers, I don't truely see the need right now. I plan on some fast MLs, but smaller vessels from my destroyer A tonnage or submarines once I start replacing the K1 class. A 5 squadron/ 20 CL force would leave room for ~14,000 more tons of vessels from which there may be some fast MLs or other specialty cruisers.

As for DD/CV tonnage, I will need all the CV tons, the 6,312 spare DD_B tonnage goes into the replacements for the antiquated Z13 class, which leaves the 3,200 DD_A tons- perhaps a pair of fast MLs.