WesWorld

This is strictly an out-of-character discussion to establish the history of Hainan. Folks are then welcome to twist this history to their own advantage in other, in-character threads.

Bernhard has indicated to Mac that Iberia gained Hainan in the 1700s, maintained it - loosely, perhaps - until the 1880s, then took a more direct role in governing it. Like other Iberian overseas colonies, it would was merged into the Iberian Federation in the early 1920s.

How and why this happened is the question. I'll propose one explanation here:

-Hainan is a Chinese possession prior to the 1700s.

-In the first half of the 1700s, Spanish missionaries and traders start to arrive from the Philippines. Soldiers arrive later to protect Spanish interests.

-The Seven Year's War (1756-63) sees Britain occupy the Spanish trading posts, just as Britain occupied the Philippines. The Peace of Paris restores both possession to Spain in 1763 and signifies official recognition by the major European powers of Hainan as a Spanish, rather than Chinese possession.

-China has enough problems with foreign powers that it is unable to dislodge the Spanish.

-As part of New Spain, the island is ruled from Mexico until that nation's independence in 1821.

-Mexico's independence forces Iberia (recently created from Spain and Portugal) to shift its administration of New Spain; for the Pacific, this function is shifted to Manila.

-Opening of the Suez Canal in around 1869 brings more communication with Spain, and more interest amongst educated Filipinos in Filipino independence. These folks envision an independent Philippines including Hainan and such main-land Iberian possessions as Macau.

-Most people in Hainan aren't enthused at this; after a century or more of Spanish rule (including conversion to catholicsm), they don't really identify with mainland China, which looks pretty dysfunctional at the moment. Pushing for their own independence looks like it may just set them up as a battleground for other European nations looking to muscle their way in (as is happening elsewhere in Asia). The Hainanese are generally satisfied to stick with the devil they know, Iberia, despite Iberia's less than ideal rule.

-The Iberian-American War, and the historical revolutions in the Philippines and Cuba, leave Iberia with a depleted empire in ~1899. Iberia recognizes that a more mutually beneficial relationship with its remaining colonies will be required, or it will lose them too. Iberia begins a program to establish the colonies (also including Liberia, Ecuador, Central America) as provinces, rather than territories.

-This plan reaches fruition in 1921 with the Federation of Iberia.

-End result: China can claim that Iberia stole Hainan from them - but the majority of Hainese are likely content to remain as part of the Iberian federation and identify more as "Iberian" than "Chinese"...

Thoughts?

I'd expect, given the history of Iberian occupation in the real world (and the level of distaste for the Iberians shown by various former Iberian colonies in WW) that it's not quite as rosy as you wrote it, Rocky. Certainly the new, revised arrangements are better than the old ones, but people have long memories.

Seems reasonable enough.

Quoted

Most people in Hainan aren't enthused at this; after a century or more of Spanish rule (including conversion to catholicsm), they don't really identify with mainland China, which looks pretty dysfunctional at the moment.

For a view of China in the Mid 18th century read "Flashman and the Dragon" part of Brig. Gen. Harry Flashman's memoirs. It covers the Taiping rebellion mostly, but explores other issues like opium trade as well.

At the risk of setting off on a tangent, how are these books, anyway? Been seeing a lot of them in stores lately.

Quoted

At the risk of setting off on a tangent, how are these books, anyway? Been seeing a lot of them in stores lately.

Absolutely excellent to read and factually correct. There really isn't any equivalent for the series.

Quoted

-As part of New Spain, the island is ruled from Mexico until that nation's independence in 1821.

Interesting, very interesting. It gives me something to use at the LoN discussion. A very tenuous claim to Hainan by Mexico.

I would think that if China can claim Spain/Iberia stole Hainan from them, the tenuous mexican claims would be made a non-starter as they were then an Iberian colony.

I have to agree with Hrolf, there would still likely be a huge percentage of inhabitants in Hainan that would still consider themselves Chinese, allthough the level of cultural interaction would make them allmost unique.

Rocky, as you have it above is roughly the way I see it. Bernhard may have had a slightly slant, but I have the power now (cue "Evil Laugh" sound effect!)

Hrolf, you have a point about long memories, but the Iberians have "cottoned on" to the fact that their relations with their former colonies have got to be dragged up to the standard of the motherland, or they will end up with a repeat of South America all over again. The Iberian economy could not afford such a loss of business and materiels.

It is my intention to build up San Hainando as a major center of The Iberian Federation in the Far East (something I believe that should have been done in the past, but that was another players style), in some way similiar to Gibralter or Malta to the British, important to both trade and defence.

One thing that Bernhard did make quite clear about the current political reasoning in Iberia with regard to the former colonies, that the losses so far were it, that the rot MUST stop...no more....nada.

Quoted

One thing that Bernhard did make quite clear about the current political reasoning in Iberia with regard to the former colonies, that the losses so far were it, that the rot MUST stop...no more....nada.

Hmmm...looks at map of Africa, notes orange color of Liberia...

Quoted

Originally posted by Commodore Green
One thing that Bernhard did make quite clear about the current political reasoning in Iberia with regard to the former colonies, that the losses so far were it, that the rot MUST stop...no more....nada.

Not to try and stir the pot any but the problem with this attitude was there was no attempt to establish a colaberated history behind the losses and the retention of some highly isolated outposts other than "it is this way because I said so" whenever a discussion began. I remember Liberia being a contentous issue because of this lack of effort.

I certainly would like to avoid that debacle again by reminding everyone that this is a discussion to establish a more detailed history and to not arbitrarily steal ones territory's.

I would suggest that CG and Ubiwan exchange e-mails and discuss at least a breif history so they can at least understand each others possition before we carry on in detail in this public discussion.

Some how I doubt Iberia's plan to use San Hainando as a major center of Iberian Federation presence in the region would sit well with the locals.

Quoted

Some how I doubt Iberia's plan to use San Hainando as a major center of Iberian Federation presence in the region would sit well with the locals.

Why? It gives the locals power, a greater sense of purpose, jobs and economic well-being. None of which they'd have if integrated with China.

I meant locals as in the neighbouring country's.