WesWorld

The other thing to keep in mind is that most HE rounds of the period are going to be contact-fused, which means the roof won't protect the troopers from fragments, the side armor will. Timed-fused HE certainly exists, but is less than ideal (because getting the fuse-time and the flight-time exactly right isn't easy) in most cases. The proximity fuse hasn't been invented yet, after all.

Quoted

Originally posted by perdedor99
exactly my point. Historically the open top vehicles were produced due to being cheaper to build even when it was proved they exposed the troopers to enemy fire. But the Russian decision to go tracked could be explained by using tank hulls as the basis of the Russian APC's.

I considered something similar using the AT-32/35 chassis, and a few may still get built to toy with the idea. The design I envisioned was for the most part open topped and able to carry roughly 8 men, not ideal for troops but good for artillary units.

Possible infantry carrying conversion of Semovente 105/35 seen on the middle right. Changes involve removal of the gun and munitions stowage, addition of bench seats (for 8 troops IIRC) and another two side doors, a machine gun on pintle mount in front of the roof hatch. For desert ops the roofs will most likely be cut off and replaced by canvas.

This tank entered low-rate initial production in 1939, and will begin fielding with the Tank Divisions over the course of 1940.

Vehicle Name T-40
Vehicle Type Medium Tank

Length 6.00 meters
Width 3.05 meters
Height 2.80 meters

Crew 4.00 men
Passengers 0.00 men

Weight Breakdown
Crew Weight 0.72 metric tons
Passenger Weight 0.00 metric tons
Miscellaneous Weight 0.10 metric tons
Armor Weight 14.46 metric tons
Armament Weight 1.55 metric tons
Ammunition Weight 1.76 metric tons
Engine Weight 2.07 metric tons
Fuel Weight 0.64 metric tons
APU Weight 0.00 metric tons
Energy Bank Weight 0.04 metric tons
Transmission Weight 0.73 metric tons
Amphibious Equipment Weight 0.00 metric tons
Suspension Weight 2.00 metric tons
Track Weight 1.90 metric tons
Road Wheel Weight 0.96 metric tons
Applique Armor Package A 5.54 metric tons
Applique Armor Package B 5.43 metric tons
Cargo Payload 0.00 metric tons

Mobility and Performance Breakdown

Engine 500.00 horsepower
Fuel Capacity 200.00 gallons
Maximum Hull Speed (water) 6.84 MPH

Baseline Upgraded (A) Upgraded (A+B)
Combat Weight 26.94 32.47 37.90 metric tons
Growth Capability (Transmission) 1.05 -4.48 -9.92 metric tons
Growth Capability (Suspension) 1.06 -4.47 -9.90 metric tons
Ground Pressure 12.77 15.39 17.97 PSI
Power/Weight Ratio 18.56 15.40 13.19 hp/metric ton
Top Speed 33.65 27.91 23.91 MPH
Operating Range 336.45 279.07 239.09 miles

Amphibious Performance Breakdown
Density of Vehicle 0.98 1.18 1.38 g/cm3
Vehicle Freeboard (Transiting) -0.39 -0.86 -1.32 meters
Vehicle Freeboard (Dropped In) -1.26 -1.91 -2.55 meters
Vehicle Draft (Transiting) 2.29 2.76 3.22 meters
Vehicle Draft (Dropped in) 3.16 3.81 4.45 meters
Water Speed #DIV/0! #DIV/0! #DIV/0! MPH
Operating Range In Water #DIV/0! #DIV/0! #DIV/0! miles

Armament Breakdown
Hull Turret
Rifle Calibre MGs 1.00 0.00
HMGs 0.00 1.00

Hull Turret Total
ATGMs 0.00 0.00 0.00 rounds stowed
Rifle Calibre 4,000.00 0.00 4,000.00 rounds stowed
HMG Calibre 0.00 2,000.00 2,000.00 rounds stowed

Calibre (mm) # in Hull # in Turret Rounds (hull) Rounds (Turret)
Cannon/Gun 1 76.20 0.00 1.00 40 10
Cannon/Gun 2 120.00 0.00 0.00 0 0

BASELINE PROTECTION LEVELS
KE (mm) HEAT (mm) KE Resistance HEAT Resistance
Front Hull Armor 90.40 76.59 Resistant to US 25mm Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Side Hull Armor 56.28 56.28 Resistant to Soviet 30x210mm M53 Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Rear Hull Armor 18.78 18.78 Resistant to 7.62 Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Top Hull Armor 20.00 20.00 Resistant to 7.62 Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Hull Floor Armor 10.00 10.00 Resistant to 5.56 Penetratable by Virtually Anything

KE (mm) HEAT (mm) KE Resistance HEAT Resistance
Front Turret Armor 106.52 86.60 Resistant to US 25mm Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Side Turret Armor 69.28 69.28 Resistant to 40mm L70 M56 AP Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Rear Turret Armor 20.71 20.71 Resistant to 7.62 Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Top Turret Armor 20.00 20.00 Resistant to 7.62 Penetratable by Virtually Anything

This vehicle also entered low-rate initial production in 1939, and will begin fielding with the Mechanized Brigades of Tank and Mechanized Divisions before populating the division artillery of these divisions. There is a large hatch in the returret rear to feed 76mm ammunition into the vehicle.


Vehicle Name SU-40
Vehicle Type Sp Artillery
Length 5.00 meters
Width 2.80 meters
Height 2.50 meters
Crew 4.00 men
Passengers 0.00 men
Weight Breakdown
Crew Weight 0.72 metric tons
Passenger Weight 0.00 metric tons
Miscellaneous Weight 0.11 metric tons
Armor Weight 3.62 metric tons
Armament Weight 1.23 metric tons
Ammunition Weight 1.69 metric tons
Engine Weight 0.50 metric tons
Fuel Weight 0.16 metric tons
APU Weight 0.00 metric tons
Energy Bank Weight 0.03 metric tons
Transmission Weight 0.26 metric tons
Amphibious Equipment Weight 0.00 metric tons
Suspension Weight 0.36 metric tons
Track Weight 0.72 metric tons
Road Wheel Weight 0.37 metric tons
Applique Armor Package A 4.46 metric tons
Applique Armor Package B 4.30 metric tons
Cargo Payload 0.00 metric tons

Mobility and Performance Breakdown
Engine 120.00 horsepower
Fuel Capacity 50.00 gallons
Maximum Hull Speed (water) 6.25 MPH
Baseline
Combat Weight 9.77
Growth Capability (Transmission) 0.24 metric tons
Growth Capability (Suspension) 0.23 metric tons
Ground Pressure 12.08 PSI
Power/Weight Ratio 12.28 hp/metric ton
Top Speed 22.26 MPH
Operating Range 231.83 miles

Armament Breakdown
Hull Turret
Rifle Calibre MGs 1.00 0.00
Rifle Calibre 5,000.00 rounds stowed


Calibre (mm) # in Hull # in Turret Rounds (hull) Rounds (Turret)
Cannon/Gun 1 76.00 0.00 1.00 50 10

BASELINE PROTECTION LEVELS
KE (mm) HEAT (mm) KE Resistance HEAT Resistance
Front Hull Armor 19.90 16.58 Resistant to 7.62 Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Side Hull Armor 12.24 10.20 Resistant to 5.56 Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Rear Hull Armor 6.00 5.00 Penetratable by Virtually Anything Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Top Hull Armor 10.00 10.00 Resistant to 5.56 Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Hull Floor Armor 9.60 8.00 Penetratable by Virtually Anything Penetratable by Virtually Anything

KE (mm) HEAT (mm) KE Resistance HEAT Resistance
Front Turret Armor 21.97 18.31 Resistant to 7.62 Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Side Turret Armor 12.19 10.15 Resistant to 5.56 Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Rear Turret Armor 6.21 5.18 Penetratable by Virtually Anything Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Top Turret Armor 12.00 10.00 Resistant to 5.56 Penetratable by Virtually Anything

These assault guns will be initially fielded in independent brigades of the High Command Reserve. They mount a 100mm/55 naval gun as their main armament.

Vehicle Name ShU-40
Vehicle Type Assault Gun

Length 6.00 meters
Width 3.06 meters
Height 2.20 meters
Crew 4.00 men
Passengers 0.00 men

Weight Breakdown
Crew Weight 0.72 metric tons
Passenger Weight 0.00 metric tons
Miscellaneous Weight 0.10 metric tons
Armor Weight 12.33 metric tons
Armament Weight 2.94 metric tons
Ammunition Weight 3.30 metric tons
Engine Weight 2.07 metric tons
Fuel Weight 0.64 metric tons
APU Weight 0.00 metric tons
Energy Bank Weight 0.04 metric tons
Transmission Weight 0.90 metric tons
Suspension Weight 2.05 metric tons
Track Weight 1.98 metric tons
Road Wheel Weight 1.00 metric tons
Cargo Payload 0.00 metric tons

Mobility and Performance Breakdown

Engine 500.00 horsepower
Fuel Capacity 200.00 gallons

Baseline
Combat Weight 28.07 metric tons
Growth Capability (Transmission) 6.58 metric tons
Growth Capability (Suspension) 0.63 metric tons
Ground Pressure 12.79 PSI
Power/Weight Ratio 17.81 hp/metric ton
Top Speed 32.29 MPH
Operating Range 322.89 miles


Armament Breakdown
Hull Turret
Rifle Calibre MGs 1.00 0.00
HMGs 0.00 1.00

Hull Turret Total
Rifle Calibre 4,000.00 0.00 4,000.00 rounds stowed
HMG Calibre 0.00 2,000.00 2,000.00 rounds stowed

Calibre (mm) # in Hull # in Turret Rounds (hull) Rounds (Turret)
Cannon/Gun 1 100.00 0.00 1.00 45 0

BASELINE PROTECTION LEVELS
KE (mm) HEAT (mm) KE Resistance HEAT Resistance
Front Hull Armor 118.20 96.10 Resistant to US 25mm Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Side Hull Armor 69.23 56.28 Resistant to 40mm L70 M56 AP Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Rear Hull Armor 18.81 18.81 Resistant to 7.62 Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Top Hull Armor 20.00 20.00 Resistant to 7.62 Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Hull Floor Armor 10.00 10.00 Resistant to 5.56 Penetratable by Virtually Anything

KE (mm) HEAT (mm) KE Resistance HEAT Resistance
Front Turret Armor 133.95 108.90 Resistant to 40mm L70 APFSDS Resistant to Bazooka
Side Turret Armor 71.01 57.74 Resistant to 40mm L70 M56 AP Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Rear Turret Armor 20.71 20.71 Resistant to 7.62 Penetratable by Virtually Anything
Top Turret Armor 20.00 20.00 Resistant to 7.62 Penetratable by Virtually Anything

Quoted

Originally posted by AdmKuznetsov
They mount a 100mm/55 naval gun as their main armament.

Thanks for the updates on the vehicles.

Any particular reason for the 100/55 gun? I assume the vehicle is pretty similar to the SU-100. The historical 76.2mm should be able to deal with most things at the moment. It's quite a jump up to 100mm.

Quoted

Originally posted by Red Admiral

Quoted

Originally posted by AdmKuznetsov
They mount a 100mm/55 naval gun as their main armament.

Thanks for the updates on the vehicles.

Any particular reason for the 100/55 gun? I assume the vehicle is pretty similar to the SU-100. The historical 76.2mm should be able to deal with most things at the moment. It's quite a jump up to 100mm.

I suspect the decision to adopt the 100mm gun is prompted by reports of heavy tank developments elsewhere - such as the Bharati Arjun-C. With the long-range weapon the SU-40 could act like a sniper and pick off OPFOR vehicles *before* they could otherwise engage. Whether this is now Russian doctrine I cannot say - but the vehicle and weapon suggests it.

though the Russian Army would like to adopt suggested tactic! Therefore ShO-40 is armored to survive being used close-in.

Armor penetration and large bursting charge on 100mm HE shell will keep SO-40 competitive with foreign designs for some years, though RF gun and vehicle designers expect that advantage conferred by 100mm/55 will be fleeting, and follow-on ShO models will most likely use TT-37 chassis.

Quoted

Originally posted by BruceDuncan
I suspect the decision to adopt the 100mm gun is prompted by reports of heavy tank developments elsewhere - such as the Bharati Arjun-C. With the long-range weapon the SU-40 could act like a sniper and pick off OPFOR vehicles *before* they could otherwise engage. Whether this is now Russian doctrine I cannot say - but the vehicle and weapon suggests it.

I think it depends on what intelligence reports you're getting. For Russia, the main threat would be Germany or Japan. Currently, they've got pretty similar vehicles with ~50mm plate highly sloped. Germany is getting together the Tiger tank which seems likely to continue from the Pz IV trend. Maybe 75mm or 100mm thick frontal armour that's highly sloped. That'd be a bit of bugger to penetrate and drive the need for larger guns but - how many of them, and how much of a threat? On the other side, Japan doesn't seem to have much beyond the Type96, and it'd be a problem shipping anything much bigger around the Pacific Islands.

India, mostly Argun tanks in service (C is already here) but armoured is limited to around 50mm. No rumours of anything much bigger or heavier armoured yet. Assessment - it'd be prettier difficult to drive something much heavier through the terrain into Russia.

It's nice to have a big gun, but is something that penetrates 150mm+ at long range really necessary at the moment? Or is it better to have a smaller gun, save some weight, and carry more ammunition?

Who wants to bet that the next generation of tanks will be 50tons+ in order to carry enough protection against Russian 100/55, German 88mm, Indian 90/56 etc. ?

Quoted

Originally posted by Red Admiral
Who wants to bet that the next generation of tanks will be 50tons+ in order to carry enough protection against Russian 100/55, German 88mm, Indian 90/56 etc. ?

It's the standard one-upsmanship of "I have a bigger tank than ___" combined with "I have to have a bigger tank to compare with ___." It's a self-repeating cycle, and it makes it really hard for folks like me who don't want to have to replace Bulgaria's tanks every six months.

I think I'm just going to buy some T-72s or Leopard-2A6s for Bulgaria next time and get it over with.

Smaller gun too, 76mm/50, despite the ARJUN C with 90mm/56 beating it into the field by late '38 vice 1940.

Assault guns, lacking the turret ring constraint, can pack a bigger gun than a tank on the same chassis.

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine

Quoted

Originally posted by Red Admiral
Who wants to bet that the next generation of tanks will be 50tons+ in order to carry enough protection against Russian 100/55, German 88mm, Indian 90/56 etc. ?

It's the standard one-upsmanship of "I have a bigger tank than ___" combined with "I have to have a bigger tank to compare with ___." It's a self-repeating cycle, and it makes it really hard for folks like me who don't want to have to replace Bulgaria's tanks every six months.

I think I'm just going to buy some T-72s or Leopard-2A6s for Bulgaria next time and get it over with.

Buy the Abrams; as good as it looks, the Leopard 2 isn't combat tested.

Oddly I never much liked the Abrams. I much prefer the look of the Leopard 2A4 and the 2A6. It just looks like a Proper Tank.

Leclercs look good, too.

Quoted

Originally posted by BruceDuncan

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine

Quoted

Originally posted by Red Admiral
Who wants to bet that the next generation of tanks will be 50tons+ in order to carry enough protection against Russian 100/55, German 88mm, Indian 90/56 etc. ?

It's the standard one-upsmanship of "I have a bigger tank than ___" combined with "I have to have a bigger tank to compare with ___." It's a self-repeating cycle, and it makes it really hard for folks like me who don't want to have to replace Bulgaria's tanks every six months.

I think I'm just going to buy some T-72s or Leopard-2A6s for Bulgaria next time and get it over with.

Buy the Abrams; as good as it looks, the Leopard 2 isn't combat tested.

True but the Leopard and the Abrams use the same 120mm gun.

Quoted

Originally posted by thesmilingassassin

Quoted

Originally posted by BruceDuncan

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine

Quoted

Originally posted by Red Admiral
Who wants to bet that the next generation of tanks will be 50tons+ in order to carry enough protection against Russian 100/55, German 88mm, Indian 90/56 etc. ?

It's the standard one-upsmanship of "I have a bigger tank than ___" combined with "I have to have a bigger tank to compare with ___." It's a self-repeating cycle, and it makes it really hard for folks like me who don't want to have to replace Bulgaria's tanks every six months.

I think I'm just going to buy some T-72s or Leopard-2A6s for Bulgaria next time and get it over with.

Buy the Abrams; as good as it looks, the Leopard 2 isn't combat tested.

True but the Leopard and the Abrams use the same 120mm gun.

But in the end it's not the gun; it's the man behind the gun. Crew quality and training are what count, not stats on a chalk-board.

Quoted

It's the standard one-upsmanship of "I have a bigger tank than ___" combined with "I have to have a bigger tank to compare with ___." It's a self-repeating cycle, and it makes it really hard for folks like me who don't want to have to replace Bulgaria's tanks every six months.

Bulgaria isn't likely to be meeting Indian tanks though. The TT-37 is still on the top of the pile due to the thick armour and long 75mm gun. Sure the Argun C mounts a 90mm gun but it's fairly small and cramped vehicle with relatively thin armour. It doesn't really need a long 100mm gun to deal with the Argun C.

I wouldn't really have thought that the need for armour penetration was there at the moment. The ShO-122 or ShO-152 on the TT-37 chassis would seem to make more sense from the assault gun point of view - and armour penetration is still fine with them.

I think one of the limits on tank growth here might be reliability; not many of the period designs over 40tons were particularly reliable.

Using the T-40 chassis for an assault gun makes it lots cheaper, more mobile, and still very effective against armored or fortified targets. The ShO-40 can look forward to a long production run.

Quoted

Originally posted by thesmilingassassin

Quoted

Originally posted by BruceDuncan

Quoted

Originally posted by Brockpaine

Quoted

Originally posted by Red Admiral
Who wants to bet that the next generation of tanks will be 50tons+ in order to carry enough protection against Russian 100/55, German 88mm, Indian 90/56 etc. ?

It's the standard one-upsmanship of "I have a bigger tank than ___" combined with "I have to have a bigger tank to compare with ___." It's a self-repeating cycle, and it makes it really hard for folks like me who don't want to have to replace Bulgaria's tanks every six months.

I think I'm just going to buy some T-72s or Leopard-2A6s for Bulgaria next time and get it over with.

Buy the Abrams; as good as it looks, the Leopard 2 isn't combat tested.

True but the Leopard and the Abrams use the same 120mm gun.

So settle for the Challanger. (runs away)

Yawn. Wake me up when someone puts a 200mm gun on a tank.

Same old arguements, same old tired ground. What is is what is. Players should build/buy what they think fulfills the need they have in terms of local opposition. Bulgaria isn't likely to meet Indian tanks, Russia isn't likely to meet Mexico's. The majority of tanks are still tin boxes with peashooter guns. Only a handful are monsters as we would define them here.


Anyway you need a Challenger 2, better than the first. Technically Challenger 3 if you consider the A30 Challenger of WW2!