WesWorld

This idea has come from Big Rich, instead of two 30,000ton ships I have one 20,000 Scout Forces Flagship and 1 40,000 ton Fleet Flagship.

Below are two concepts for the cruiser, 16x8" vs 8x12". The scout forces currently have 8" and 12" cruisers. I see advantages going for either 8" or 12" but not a 9.2 or 10" as this would introduce a new calibre.



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Super-Cruiser, Greek cruiser laid down 1931

Displacement:
18,590 t light; 19,629 t standard; 21,371 t normal; 22,766 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
708.00 ft / 680.00 ft x 80.00 ft x 25.00 ft (normal load)
215.80 m / 207.26 m x 24.38 m x 7.62 m

Armament:
8 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (3 mounts), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1931 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority aft
4 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (2x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1931 Model
Dual purpose guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all forward, all raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (4x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1931 Model
Dual purpose guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all aft, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (6x2 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1931 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
24 - 0.49" / 12.5 mm guns (12x2 guns), 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1931 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 7,687 lbs / 3,487 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 140
8 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 8.00" / 203 mm 390.00 ft / 118.87 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 88 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 8.00" / 203 mm 4.00" / 102 mm 7.00" / 178 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - 2.00" / 51 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -

- Armour deck: 4.20" / 107 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 95,683 shp / 71,379 Kw = 30.50 kts
Range 9,000nm at 15.00 kts (Bunkerage = 3,137 tons)

Complement:
883 - 1,148

Cost:
£8.109 million / $32.437 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 961 tons, 4.5 %
Armour: 5,657 tons, 26.5 %
- Belts: 1,352 tons, 6.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,234 tons, 5.8 %
- Armour Deck: 3,071 tons, 14.4 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 2,861 tons, 13.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,911 tons, 41.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,781 tons, 13.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 200 tons, 0.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
31,248 lbs / 14,174 Kg = 36.2 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 2.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.07
Metacentric height 4.0 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 16.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.91
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.21

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.550
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.50 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 29.97 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 45.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
- Mid (70 %): 25.00 ft / 7.62 m (16.00 ft / 4.88 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Stern: 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Average freeboard: 23.22 ft / 7.08 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 79.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 183.1 %
Waterplane Area: 39,525 Square feet or 3,672 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 154 lbs/sq ft or 750 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.52
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily





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Super-Cruiser, Greek Cruiser laid down 1931

Displacement:
18,845 t light; 19,629 t standard; 21,371 t normal; 22,766 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
708.00 ft / 680.00 ft x 80.00 ft x 25.00 ft (normal load)
215.80 m / 207.26 m x 24.38 m x 7.62 m

Armament:
16 - 8.00" / 203 mm guns (4x4 guns), 256.00lbs / 116.12kg shells, 1931 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (4x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1931 Model
Dual purpose guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all forward, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (4x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1931 Model
Dual purpose guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side, all aft, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (6x2 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1931 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
24 - 0.49" / 12.5 mm guns (12x2 guns), 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1931 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 5,121 lbs / 2,323 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
8 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 10.0" / 254 mm 390.00 ft / 118.87 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 88 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 9.00" / 229 mm 4.50" / 114 mm 9.00" / 229 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - 2.00" / 51 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -

- Armour deck: 5.00" / 127 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 95,683 shp / 71,379 Kw = 30.50 kts
Range 9,000nm at 15.00 kts (Bunkerage = 3,137 tons)

Complement:
883 - 1,148

Cost:
£6.972 million / $27.890 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 640 tons, 3.0 %
Armour: 6,786 tons, 31.8 %
- Belts: 1,690 tons, 7.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 1,440 tons, 6.7 %
- Armour Deck: 3,656 tons, 17.1 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 2,861 tons, 13.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,258 tons, 38.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,526 tons, 11.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
35,354 lbs / 16,036 Kg = 138.1 x 8.0 " / 203 mm shells or 3.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.04
Metacentric height 3.8 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 17.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.68
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.21

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak, raised quarterdeck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.550
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.50 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 29.97 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 45.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 27.00 ft / 8.23 m
- Mid (70 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m (15.00 ft / 4.57 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m (15.00 ft / 4.57 m before break)
- Stern: 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Average freeboard: 23.11 ft / 7.04 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 68.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 178.4 %
Waterplane Area: 39,525 Square feet or 3,672 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 119 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 143 lbs/sq ft or 696 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.40
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily


Cheers,

The 16 gun version definitely looks better.

Crane on the stern and two catapults might be overkill.

I also say that the 16 gun ship is a better idea.
That machine gun aproche is in shipbilding is something i personaly like.

The Rain of Pain TM

My influence is overstated. My suggestion wasn't nearly as good as these...

I like the 12" design. When your going against or getting away from screening enemy cruisers, why fight fair?

Regards,

Big Rich

I'll cast my vote for the 4x4 version; the 12-incher will wind up in the battleline, with the expected result...

Just when I thought Americans were going for firepower and Europeans were in favour of splatter - Swampy tips the centipede.


I'm not thrilled by quad turrets (one option was 6 triple turret but no where for aircraft) and 12" on under 20,000tons may not be a good idea as Swampy notes.

Cheers,

Quoted

one option was 6 triple turret but no where for aircraft

What about the Italian style bow catapult? Not even space for that?

I didn't think people would let me have a VLS with folding wing planes.

If it was a good idea then everyone would do it...

Cheers,

Quoted

I didn't think people would let me have a VLS with folding wing planes.

I briefly considered it but thought it would be too hard to make it work.

Bow catapults are fine for Meditterenean use. Greece is in the Med unless I'm mistaken.

I like the 8" version more than the other because it´s a more balanced design overall and - surprisingly - I like that. Her armor suit is thicker giving her an edge against all kind of treaty cruiser and at least some kind of protection against various larger caliber guns such as 25cm, 28cm or whatever is used in other navies.

She seems to be some kind of a modern EL CID or am I totally wrong?

I´d try to improve her speed a little bit. With 30,5kn she might not be able to escape the latest modern capital ships. However, I´m not sure how likely it is for her to encounter such a vessel.

The CT distorts what I really want to do but everyone has that problem. It is the CT that is pushing this to a 20,000ton design which logically should have bigger than 8" but smaller than 12" so this ship is grasping for 12" but overkill for 8". I think I lean toward the 12" as it can turn tail and have 6 guns in a stern chase. It could clobber enemy scouts that have their own scout mission to do and thus prevent the enemy from gaining info even if my ships fail to do the same.

I wanted modest speed to match in with the rest of the scout fleet (carriers and cruisers). I suspect that if I up the speed I'll need to change the hull form.

It's not any effort to match a particular design just a way of bolstering the scout forces when they loose 2 12" armed ships due for replacement.

RA, I may reconsider the hangar under the bridge and catapult over the bow.

Cheers,

Why not a 9x12" design? Personally I think it would look a tad bit more balanced with a triple forward rather than a twin.

I'll reserve my comments about quads with calibers below battleship specs, which is the only reason I wouldn't pick the second design, which to me looks much better.

the problem with the 8" version is that she is

- slower than El Cid (but not significantly so)
- weaker armoured than El Cid
- weaker armed than El Cid

But El Cid is only one ship that cannot be everywhere at once.

The real problem with the 16x8" version is the aircraft facilities on the stern that really hurt the clean arcs of fire.

Chile's Capitan Taylor and the possible four future Capitan Oyamas will be enough to keep El Cid tired up if the Iberians felt they wanted to keep it in the New World along with their new "Colonial" Battleship(s).

Quoted

Originally posted by Ithekro
Chile's Capitan Taylor and the possible four future Capitan Oyamas will be enough to keep El Cid tired up if the Iberians felt they wanted to keep it in the New World along with their new "Colonial" Battleship(s).

They are only refered to as "Colonial" battelships, they are "La Luna" class BB's.

Iberia is a federation , after all!!

Since both designs are the same size, I would opt for the most power and go with the 12" version

Regarding the 8" design: the forward pair of 5" DP guns seem awfully close to the "B" main battery turret and would seem to restrict it's firing arcs. Maybe that forward pair of DP mounts would be better resited abreast the boat storage.