WesWorld

Rio de Janeiro
Recife
Brazilian Battlecruisers laid down 1930

Displacement:
23,609 t light; 24,734 t standard; 26,930 t normal; 28,687 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
752.64 ft / 750.00 ft x 80.00 ft (Bulges 91.20 ft) x 26.50 ft (normal load)
229.40 m / 228.60 m x 24.38 m (Bulges 27.80 m) x 8.08 m

Armament:
6 - 12.01" / 305 mm guns (3x2 guns), 925.00lbs / 419.57kg shells, 1925 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
15 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (5x3 guns), 55.12lbs / 25.00kg shells, 1930 Model
Quick firing guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount - superfiring
24 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (12x2 guns), 14.00lbs / 6.35kg shells, 1930 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 8 raised mounts - 2 superfiring
16 - 1.38" / 35.0 mm guns (8x2 guns), 1.32lbs / 0.60kg shells, 1930 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 0.54" / 13.7 mm guns (2x4 guns), 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1930 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centerline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts

Weight of broadside 6,735 lbs / 3,055 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150

8 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 8.27" / 210 mm 534.78 ft / 163.00 m 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 1.57" / 40 mm 534.78 ft / 163.00 m 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
Main Belt covers 110 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
1.77" / 45 mm 534.78 ft / 163.00 m 23.29 ft / 7.10 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 8.27" / 210 mm 5.12" / 130 mm 8.27" / 210 mm
2nd: 2.95" / 75 mm 1.57" / 40 mm 2.95" / 75 mm
3rd: 1.18" / 30 mm - -
4th: 0.79" / 20 mm - -
5th: 0.59" / 15 mm - -

- Armour deck: 4.72" / 120 mm, Conning tower: 5.12" / 130 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 142,500 shp / 106,305 Kw = 31.75 kts
Range 15,000nm at 12.00 kts (Bunkerage = 3,953 tons)

Complement:
1,050 - 1,366

Cost:
£8.763 million / $35.053 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 791 tons, 2.9 %
Armour: 8,381 tons, 31.1 %
- Belts: 2,552 tons, 9.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 817 tons, 3.0 %
- Armament: 1,355 tons, 5.0 %
- Armour Deck: 3,559 tons, 13.2 %
- Conning Tower: 99 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 4,318 tons, 16.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,918 tons, 36.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,321 tons, 12.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 200 tons, 0.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
26,435 lbs / 11,991 Kg = 30.5 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 3.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
Metacentric height 4.6 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 17.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.44
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.13

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.520
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.22 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 27.39 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 62
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
Stern overhang: -2.00 ft / -0.61 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 30.12 ft / 9.18 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Mid (50 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Stern: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Average freeboard: 22.00 ft / 6.71 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 101.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 142.4 %
Waterplane Area: 40,718 Square feet or 3,783 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 114 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 155 lbs/sq ft or 758 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.10
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Hmm is it a final design?
Or a study?

I think 6x305 are a little low.You can use 2 triples giving more to put in armour or making a smaller cheaper ship.
the armor is not all that impesing.
The speed is high one kt slower and you have more armour or guns.
the seconderys good if not excelent.

Id more of a Guns and armour person
Thinking about the ship as a whole its a great raider.
If you ask me(wich You didnt )Its an ARC I bet It primery funcion is a Cruiser killer.

Heh, ought to put the 320mms that the Philipines has decided not to continue with on this ship, that way they'd go to a good home.

I'm not sure that this ship, as designed, is good value for money. It's giving up 2 305mms, weight of secondary and tertiary fire, AND armor to the Argentinian ships, which aren't that much (1250 tons standard) heavier. It's a little faster than the Argentine ship (0.75 knots) and a bit longer ranged, but.... Fairly good at squashing Nordish (or any other CT signatory) cruisers, though, so perhaps that's its main function.

[Actually, it'll be the primary line combatant for Brazil. Whatever it might be in comparison to other modern BCs, it's heads and tells above the two pre-dreadnaught CDBBs that it's replacing.

Also, keep in mind that Argentina is only building two battlecruisers and presently only has five other truly modern ships. At the end of my building program the Marinha Império will be as modern as any in the world, and perhaps the largest in South America.]

Largest South American Navy, eh? We'll see.

Always hold on to that trump card. Never know what will happen when the Treaty collapses.

Oh and your foreigner southern neighbor has the most powerful 15 inch gun battleline after the United Kingdom.

The guns are new 55-calibre weapons, while the Argentines' are reruns from their old battleships, so it doesn't give up too much there. Also the 120s probably have a higher rate-of-fire than the 150s...

Unfortunatly triples won't fit the hullform, and with 2x3 you get into eggs-and-baskets scenarios.

Remember that Argentina's not the only potential enemy for Brazil. These ships will stomp all over anything Columbia has. ;-)

Quoted

Originally posted by Ithekro
Oh and your foreigner southern neighbor has the most powerful 15 inch gun battleline after the United Kingdom.

[Psssst! Don´t tell him! ;o)]

Quoted

Originally posted by Swamphen
The guns are new 55-calibre weapons, while the Argentines' are reruns from their old battleships, so it doesn't give up too much there. Also the 120s probably have a higher rate-of-fire than the 150s...

I agree - those 305mm guns of 55 claiber should pack the punch necessary to deal with most units short of a full scale battleship. From a certain perspective those BC are truly sucessors to the original BC concept: Fast, well armed and lightly armored (for her size and firepower).

I disagree however on their secondaries - those 120mm guns will not give an edge because of their triple mounts. Their ROF will be slowed down by such an installation. If you can put them in twins on the other hand....or DP-singles....

Anyway, an interesting design and easily a good match for every cruiser in existance and many elderly capital ships. One wonders how such a ship would fair against a HERTOG-class BC.....?!

Hmmmm, I'm thinking more about a dual with a Gjoa Lejon Class BC

Runs off and starts looking at superheavy 340mm shells!!!

Heh, if you're up against Gjota Lejon, run away. It has better armor, bigger guns, and more of them. But you do have a speed and range advantage, at least until the Nords rebuild or replace Gjota Lejon.

As far as rate of fire goes, that seems to be more a matter of mounting design than number of tubes: some triple mountings were faster than twins of similar size (see the US 6"/47 for an example), others were the same (see the German 15cm/60 vs 15cm/55), and others were slower (see most French mountings). A well designed triple, that had enough hoists and fast enough hoists, doesn't seem to have had a problem with keeping up with a twin. But there were some poorly designed triples (and twins, too) that couldn't keep up.

The secondary turrets on the "Samal" type ships were originally designed as triple 155mm mounts. Due to weight concerns Samal and Bohol had their trimmed to extremly roomy twins. These ships, with the lighter 120mm guns, return to a triple mount, but the turret size is still for 3x155, so there will be no reduction of RoF on account of cramping. ;-)

Why would Brazil buy a ship that is significantly inferior to the Argentinean pair?

As mentioned earlier, 6x305/55 is roughly equal to the 8x305/old of the Argentinean ships, the armour only gives up 20mm (and the deck armour's thicker), and if all else fails they can run away... ;-)


Also again this is merely Step I of the Brazilians' rebuilding plans. They're a major step above anything extant in their fleet, and could kick the crap out of the combined fleets of Columbia and Peru without breaking a sweat.


And, Señor Garcia can be a very persuasive salesman. XD

Quoted

Originally posted by Swamphen
As mentioned earlier, 6x305/55 is roughly equal to the 8x305/old of the Argentinean ships, the armour only gives up 20mm (and the deck armour's thicker), and if all else fails they can run away... ;-)


Also again this is merely Step I of the Brazilians' rebuilding plans. They're a major step above anything extant in their fleet, and could kick the crap out of the combined fleets of Columbia and Peru without breaking a sweat.


And, Señor Garcia can be a very persuasive salesman. XD

Well first message on this board
(But i have posted a bit on the Warships1 board)


She is not fast enough to run away unless she turn tail and flee the Argentinean ship unless the turn tail at the first sight, and 0,5kts is too little to have any tactical effect in battle.
And while your shells have a higher V0, i suspect that they are worse at penetrating decks then the heavier Argentinean shells, and as RA and others have pointed out, it is 6 vs. 8. (i really fail to see how they could be 1/3 more effective then the guns of the Argentinean ship)
So you ship cannot either outfight or outrun the Argi opposite... and while as you say, they can stop anything in the Columbian and Peruanian navy, so could a ship half the size...

And while 120mm guns have a higher ROF then 15cm guns, they have a much shorter effective range.

/Cheers

Quoted

As mentioned earlier, 6x305/55 is roughly equal to the 8x305/old of the Argentinean ships

No its not. The 305mm/55 might be individually more powerful, but not by much. If you read over the news articles again you'll see that Italy is also supplying her own 452kg shells in lieu of the 870lb shells that were historically carried. And 33% more guns is good.

The deck armour is fairly thick, but 210mm belt vs. 270mm.

As I've said before, you need a 4knt speed advantage before speed becomes an issue.

The heavy secondary battery on Patagonia (18x152mm/53) is in part due to the lack of modern destroyers and cruisers. But a single 152mm shell will kill a destroyer. A 120mm shell won't.

Quoted

Originally posted by Korpen
Well first message on this board
(But i have posted a bit on the Warships1 board)

Welcome to the Board, Korpen!

If Germany had been asked to submit a design for Brazil, this is probably what HDW would have submitted. Gives up a little bit in bore size to Patagonia, but has more main guns and better armor. But Germany wasn't asked, so this will (probably) remain nothing more than a design study.


Rio de Janerio, German Battlecruiser laid down 1930

Displacement:
24,952 t light; 26,122 t standard; 28,009 t normal; 29,518 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
791.91 ft / 771.00 ft x 82.02 ft x 28.71 ft (normal load)
241.38 m / 235.00 m x 25.00 m x 8.75 m

Armament:
9 - 11.02" / 280 mm guns (3x3 guns), 669.80lbs / 303.81kg shells, 1930 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
12 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (4x3 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1930 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on side ends, evenly spread
12 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (6x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1930 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
2 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (1x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1930 Model
Dual purpose guns in a deck mount with hoist
on centreline aft, all raised guns - superfiring
16 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (8x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1930 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 7,783 lbs / 3,530 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 135

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 12.6" / 320 mm 485.73 ft / 148.05 m 10.86 ft / 3.31 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 97 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.97" / 50 mm 485.73 ft / 148.05 m 26.18 ft / 7.98 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 13.8" / 350 mm 5.91" / 150 mm 12.6" / 320 mm
2nd: 4.72" / 120 mm 2.76" / 70 mm 4.72" / 120 mm
3rd: 1.97" / 50 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
4th: 1.97" / 50 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
5th: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -

- Armour deck: 4.33" / 110 mm, Conning tower: 5.91" / 150 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 129,549 shp / 96,643 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 3,396 tons

Complement:
1,082 - 1,407

Cost:
£9.368 million / $37.472 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 973 tons, 3.5 %
Armour: 9,604 tons, 34.3 %
- Belts: 2,800 tons, 10.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 926 tons, 3.3 %
- Armament: 2,114 tons, 7.5 %
- Armour Deck: 3,646 tons, 13.0 %
- Conning Tower: 117 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 3,926 tons, 14.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,340 tons, 36.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,057 tons, 10.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 110 tons, 0.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
38,031 lbs / 17,251 Kg = 56.8 x 11.0 " / 280 mm shells or 5.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 4.5 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 16.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.56
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.540
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.40 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 31.70 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 30.54 ft / 9.31 m
- Forecastle (21 %): 19.42 ft / 5.92 m
- Mid (50 %): 19.42 ft / 5.92 m
- Quarterdeck (16 %): 19.42 ft / 5.92 m
- Stern: 19.42 ft / 5.92 m
- Average freeboard: 20.36 ft / 6.20 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 96.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 155.6 %
Waterplane Area: 45,508 Square feet or 4,228 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 156 lbs/sq ft or 761 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.02
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

110 tons reserved for aircraft and growth.

Quoted

The deck armour is fairly thick, but 210mm belt vs. 270mm.

No, 250mm vs 270mm. 210mm main belt+40mm decapping plate .

Quoted

decapping plate

Yes, because that's realistic.

No, its Filipino.

There is one other thing that was mentioned. Number of ships. Argentina has had a serious reduction of her navy at the hands of Nordmark, and is just now getting back on her feet with new toys. Brazil seems to be of the mindset of out numbering the Argentinians with maybe six of these lesser battlecruisers verses two superior Battlecruisers in Argentina. Plus what exists of the Argentinian battle forces will be divided if they have to pay attention to the Chileans as well with there more numberous but lesser heavy armored cruisers and new battleships. (Chile is not all that worried about Peru now that the Almirante Gideon and a few of the light crusiers are complete).