WesWorld

Looking at Navweaps, there's mention of the World War 1 (and earlier) vintage 9.4", 11", and 12" guns being used in coastal batteries during World War II. Since all or almost all of the ships mounting these weapons were either sunk, interned and scuttled, or otherwise lost during or soon after the war, I'm curious where they came from, and how many there were. If anyone has any answers, please post! Thanks!

I've seen pictures of various German weapons factory's churning out 11" turrets prior to the great war. I'm sure some were earmarked for coastal batery's along with other weapons.

From what I can tell however, most of these defences were dismantled thanks to the CT, the remaining forts were obsolete. Certain fortifications on the North and Baltic sea's were also allowed to be retained.

So no one has any numbers? Drat, I was hoping someone did, in one of the fortress books or something.


If not, I suppose I can create numbers based on a percentage of the post-1900 guns built for the armored cruisers and dreadnoughts of the fleet. Say 33% of the number installed on ships would be available for use, from guns built as coastal weapons and spares for ships lost from war losses and post-war scuttlings? These guns would be of the following types (the list of guns used in WWII on navweaps, minus the 240mm/40 and 170mm/40 guns which were sold to the Philippines): 305mm/50, 280mm/45, 280mm/40, 210mm/50, 210mm/40, 150mm/45, and 150mm/40.

I think they were specially made turrets, usually singles, with guns coming from the stockpile. Then there were new builds. The 283mm gun in a duple turret and the 406mm in a single turret. There is a 406mm turret at Trondesnes, but its a bit out of the way for a special visit.

The 38 cm/45 SK L/45 is also an option.
Guns bild for uncomplited Bayerns and Ersatz Yorcks ,at least 40 guns so 10 of them seams realistic.

The reason I didn't list the 38cm/45 or the 35cm/45 is because they were used in "Lange Max" railroad mountings during WWI to support the army, and there's no mention of them being used as coastal batteries during WWII, while there is mention of the others being so used.

New builds are easy, I can do those, it's the older guns that I'm trying to come to grips with.

Here's what I get for numbers produced for mounting on armored cruisers and larger vessels:

305mm/50 - 122
280mm/45 - 56
280mm/40 - 56
210mm/50 - 12
210mm/40 - 20
150mm/45 - 356


If I assume that there 33% of these numbers are available for use in ccoastal batteries, that gives the following:

305mm/50 - 40
280mm/45 - 18
280mm/40 - 18
210mm/50 - 4
210mm/40 - 6
150mm/45 - 118

Does this seem reasonable?

Italy has the following guns spread around Italy and the EAS. The 15" guns all come from the Caracciolo class, the 12" guns are from pre-dreadnoughts. No idea where the 8" were from. The 6" guns could be pillaged from ships or purpose built.

16x15" guns
22x12" guns
16x280mm howitzers - ex-army
7x8" guns
4x190mm guns
133x6" guns
20x149mm guns - ex-army
52x120mm guns

For Germany; 1. The ships carrying the guns have been sunk 2. The guns were pillaged for use on the Western front

Even dropping it down to 10% of all possible available weapons still leaves you with quite a number considering the amount of coastline that you have.

Of course saving the guns you remove from scraped ships is always an option, Atlantis gained tons of 12" and 9.2" guns that way.

Agreed that the ships that carried these guns were (mostly) sunk or scuttled, not in question. The 280mm/40s, though, come from scrapped pre-dreadnoughts, most of which (historically) survived the war.

It doesn't LOOK like the remainder (spares, already installed coast guns) in these sizes went off to the front as artillery pieces, probably because they were needed as spares and coast guns until after the war was over. Thee 35cm and 38cm guns did go off to the front, probably because they had been produced for ships that had been canceled or were so far from delivery that they could be returned, relined and ready before they were finished.

Here's what 10% gives:
305mm/50 - 12
280mm/45 - 6
280mm/40 - 6
210mm/50 - 1
210mm/40 - 2
150mm/45 - 36

That seems rather too small, especially in the 210mm sizes, to even bother keeping, let alone producing special coastal shells, but the 210s historically WERE kept and special shells produced for them.

Here's what 25% gives:
305mm/50 - 30
280mm/45 - 14
280mm/40 - 14
210mm/50 - 3
210mm/40 - 5
150mm/45 - 89

Its the number of large-calibre guns that is worrying, not the smaller 210mm ones. You could always nick the 210mm guns from the Army's heavy artillery.

...is go for the 10% on the 305s and 150s, and the 25% on the rest.

Hmm, I wonder if, given the expected short battle ranges of the Baltic and Nordsee, if Krupp would want to have a look at the Philippines' 305/55 weapon?

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Its the number of large-calibre guns that is worrying, not the smaller 210mm ones. You could always nick the 210mm guns from the Army's heavy artillery.

Heh, not after the VT, I can't, not to mention that the Heere's future 210mm is a howitzer, not a gun, and not over-useful as an anti-shipping weapon. The heaviest planned field gun for the Heere is the 170mm, though they are getting some 350mm guns built as railroad artillery (and Krupp is looking at those for coastal guns).

Anyway, I'm not certain why it's OK for Italy to have 48 guns of 12" and larger and it's problematic for Germany to have 30, when Germany was the country that got invaded from the sea in WW WWI.

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Of course saving the guns you remove from scraped ships is always an option, Atlantis gained tons of 12" and 9.2" guns that way.

Heh, I'm intending to do that now and in the future, but most of the High Seas Fleet went down at Scapa Flow and was not scrapped, so those guns cannot be salvaged in that manner.

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Hmm, I wonder if, given the expected short battle ranges of the Baltic and Nordsee, if Krupp would want to have a look at the Philippines' 305/55 weapon?

Possibly.

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Anyway, I'm not certain why it's OK for Italy to have 48 guns of 12" and larger and it's problematic for Germany to have 30, when Germany was the country that got invaded from the sea in WW WWI.

Italy was considerably stronger in the pred-dreadnought era. She's gone from being 2nd strongest to about 8th or so now. The guns are just a consequence of that. Bear in mind that the longest 12" guns are 40-cal. Those 8 are mounted near Bab al Mandab. A few more 40-cal weapons, then much shorter older weapons. Some of them are 17-cal guns. And the fact that Sicily has more coastline than Germany.

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Heh, not after the VT, I can't, not to mention that the Heere's future 210mm is a howitzer, not a gun, and not over-useful as an anti-shipping weapon.

It depends. All those 280mm howitzers near the straits of Messina will punch nicely through people's decks.

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Italy was considerably stronger in the pred-dreadnought era. She's gone from being 2nd strongest to about 8th or so now. The guns are just a consequence of that. Bear in mind that the longest 12" guns are 40-cal. Those 8 are mounted near Bab al Mandab. A few more 40-cal weapons, then much shorter older weapons. Some of them are 17-cal guns. And the fact that Sicily has more coastline than Germany.

After 1890, the Italians build the following ships that could be considered pre-dreadnoughts: Saint Bon, Garibaldi, Regina Margherita, Regina Elena, Pisa, San Giorgio and San Marco. That's 7 pre-dreadnoughts. In the same time period Germany built 24 pre-dreadnoughts (some of those were armed with 9.4" guns, but then, none of the Italian ships except the last 2 carried more than 2 main guns, and none larger than 10").

Amount of coastline seems of very little import, compared to number of guns produced and hence available. Or compared to the lack of amphibious invasions of Italy to this point in time.

Quoted

It depends. All those 280mm howitzers near the straits of Messina will punch nicely through people's decks

A 280mm howitzer, equipped with AP rounds, is one thing. A 210mm howitzer, not equipped with AP rounds, is quite another. After all, the 280mm you're talking about orginally started as a coast defence weapon, became an army fortress-breaker in the Russo-Japanese war and was used again in that role during WW1, and is now returning to it's roots in a coast-defence role.

In that case to solve the problem, find out what Germany had historically. Adm K or Wes should be able to give you the data from Kaupftman & Jurga.

That's what I was hoping to find out originally, I don't have the book.