WesWorld

Lead ship of a new class of destroyers, armed with the 105mm dual-purpose gun previously used as a secondary mounting on the Ersatz Medusa class CLs.

Z-214, Germany Destroyer laid down 1929

Displacement:
1,586 t light; 1,673 t standard; 1,856 t normal; 2,003 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
407.65 ft / 393.70 ft x 34.45 ft x 11.98 ft (normal load)
124.25 m / 120.00 m x 10.50 m x 3.65 m

Armament:
8 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (4x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1928 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
2 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (1x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1929 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mount
on centreline amidships, all raised guns - superfiring
4 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1929 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
8 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1928 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 294 lbs / 133 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 300
8 - 23.6" / 600 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.97" / 50 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
2nd: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -
3rd: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -
4th: 0.39" / 10 mm - -

- Conning tower: 1.97" / 50 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 36,209 shp / 27,012 Kw = 34.00 kts
Range 4,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 329 tons

Complement:
140 - 183

Cost:
£0.849 million / $3.395 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 37 tons, 2.0 %
Armour: 36 tons, 1.9 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 30 tons, 1.6 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 6 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 899 tons, 48.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 564 tons, 30.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 271 tons, 14.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 2.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
531 lbs / 241 Kg = 15.0 x 4.1 " / 105 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.31
Metacentric height 1.6 ft / 0.5 m
Roll period: 11.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.44
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.03

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.400
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.43 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.70 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 63 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 1.64 ft / 0.50 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 13.78 ft / 4.20 m
- Mid (50 %): 13.78 ft / 4.20 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 13.78 ft / 4.20 m
- Stern: 13.78 ft / 4.20 m
- Average freeboard: 14.38 ft / 4.38 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 175.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 78.9 %
Waterplane Area: 8,664 Square feet or 805 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 71 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 35 lbs/sq ft or 170 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.30
- Overall: 0.55
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped

10 tons reserved for depth charges, DC racks, and DC launchers.

40 tons reserved for reload torpedoes, mines, and growth.

Will all the AA guns fit onto a hull with 4 main mountings already and the reload torpedoes.

With reloads, your deckspace gets eaten up like this;

There's 2 centerline banks of 4 tubes each, laid out fore and aft of the after stack. In concept, any reload torps would be carried in deckhouses on either side of the after stack, with a twin 37mm on top of those deckhouses. The ships boats would be carried on either side of the after deckhouse and on either side of the forward stack. The centerline 37mm mounting is forward of the upper 105mm mounting and on the same level.

First, I agree with Red Admiral and would love to see a linedrawing including deckplan of her.

Second...

*friday morning rant mode on*

Quoted

Originally posted by Hrolf Hakonson
Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
407.65 ft / 393.70 ft x 34.45 ft x 11.98 ft (normal load)
124.25 m / 120.00 m x 10.50 m x 3.65 m

[...]

Length to Beam Ratio: 11.43 : 1

...and that´s just her l:b ratio at her waterline. Overaöö it´s 11,8333333333333333333333333333333....

Do I need to say more?

(Extreme l:b ratios, transome sterns and low HS - Someday someone has to explain to me what´s the fun with all this power-gaming... I´m kinda getting bored.)

*friday morning rant mode off*

This ship would be majorly crowded and quite useless.

As far as looks go, she'd look a lot like the post-refit USS Porter (DD-356), though with somewhat smaller gunhouses and longer, though thinner, gun barrels. She would not have the large searchlight/signalling tower aft that the pre-refit Porter had, nor would she have the quad 1.1" tub forward of the bridge. The aft quad 1.1" mount would be replaced by the centerline twin 37mm. Link to pictures of USS Porter.

Hello everybody,

Hrolf asked me if (and if so why) I´m overly critical with his designs. He pointed out that there had been several extreme designs lately (British DDs for example or a CL now and then) and I didn´t comment on them in a similar manner.

I´d like to take this chance to point out that it´s nothing personal regarding Hrolf. I´m "just" fighting those and other extreme designs. And I´m doing so for quite some time now (older players may agree). It doesn´t matter to me who post them.

If I did not comment on others in the past the reason is most likely that they escaped me for various reasons. Regarding others that became existant in WW I know I commented on them but the designer in question chosed to keep the design (which is okay, I´m not here to tell players what to do, but becomes a problem if somebody uses these examples to argue for his design today).

For clarification: The maximum for l:b ratio was set because the ships with the highest ratio I could find (a French contre-torpellieure in Withley´s "DDs of WW2", IIRC) had ~11,2:1 overall. So to allow players to build copies of historical designs the limit was set to 12:1 (even numbers look so much nicer in rules). Today I think we should have been smarter back then but it worked for quite a while.

Now we´ve seen some new players join the Sim and immediately the number of extreme designs "exploded". Of course there always have been extreme designs in the past. But those were single ships or classes. Exceptions of the standard. So I wonder what has changed or what needs to be changed? It´s either the attitude of some designers or our rules - hopefully in a manner that will not spoil anybody´s fun (including myself). And changing the rules is more dangerous in my eye because so many ships were already build to the original set of rules.

Whatever changes, I really hope the number of extreme (you could also call them "critical") designs will decrease in the future.

And again: It´s nothing personal against any individual player. If it looked different, I´m sorry.

Regards,

HoOmAn

How to get around it; use historical designs that are slightly altered to suit your respective country.

e.g.

You want a destroyer leader, try and sim Le Fantasque or Mogador or Leningrad.

Light cruiser for oceanic stuff. look at Leander or Arethusa or Gloucester for something a bit bigger.

Heavy cruisers, not much to go on for 13.000tons ships apart from Hipper, Baltimore or the Japanese ones.

While the design rules still apply to non-treaty nations, such nations are a little more free in what directions they can take. They just tend to have very limited resources, so experiments and/or overly large vessels will be in small numbers relative to the treaty nations. Its not that the treaty nations can't build these ships, its just not sound to do so under treaty restrictions, or in some cases for practical reasons.

Chile's Light Destroyers with a single 150mm mount forward and two 110mm mounts aft are one example.
Chile's Heavy Armored Cruisers are another.
The converted Guardia Marina Hyatt is more of a making a new underarmed light cruiser into something slightly more useful...a hybrid light cruiser/floatplane carrier.

A shortened and broadened version of Z-214.

Z-214, Germany Destroyer laid down 1929

Displacement:
1,586 t light; 1,673 t standard; 1,855 t normal; 2,000 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
383.23 ft / 377.30 ft x 35.43 ft x 12.14 ft (normal load)
116.81 m / 115.00 m x 10.80 m x 3.70 m

Armament:
8 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (4x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1929 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
2 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (1x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1929 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mount
on centreline aft, all raised guns - superfiring
4 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1929 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
8 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1929 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 294 lbs / 133 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 300
8 - 23.6" / 600 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.97" / 50 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 1.97" / 50 mm
2nd: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -
3rd: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -
4th: 0.39" / 10 mm - -

- Conning tower: 1.97" / 50 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 36,992 shp / 27,596 Kw = 34.00 kts
Range 4,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 327 tons

Complement:
140 - 183

Cost:
£0.856 million / $3.423 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 37 tons, 2.0 %
Armour: 36 tons, 1.9 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 30 tons, 1.6 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 6 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 912 tons, 49.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 571 tons, 30.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 269 tons, 14.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 30 tons, 1.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
535 lbs / 242 Kg = 15.1 x 4.1 " / 105 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.32
Metacentric height 1.7 ft / 0.5 m
Roll period: 11.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.40
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.400
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.65 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.35 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 22.15 ft / 6.75 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 16.90 ft / 5.15 m (13.94 ft / 4.25 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 13.94 ft / 4.25 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 13.94 ft / 4.25 m
- Stern: 13.94 ft / 4.25 m
- Average freeboard: 14.95 ft / 4.56 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 177.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 77.5 %
Waterplane Area: 8,540 Square feet or 793 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 70 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 36 lbs/sq ft or 174 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.54
- Overall: 0.55
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped

10 tons reserved for depth charges, DC racks, and DC launchers.

20 tons reserved for mines and growth.

Looks much better to me and she didn´t actually loose much, did she?

Btw, 300 shells per main gun is a lot - are you sure you need that much?

The 105mm/65 has a rate of fire of 15-18 rounds per minutes, so 300 rounds only lasts for 20 minutes, or less, at max rate of fire. That's about what I'm aiming for on a destroyer. The cruisers and capital ships that carried this gun in real life carried 400+ rounds per gun for it, and the American DDs that carried the 5"/38 (which fires at about the same rate) mostly carried 300 rounds or more per gun (up to 525 rounds per gun for late-war Fletchers.

As to what she lost, whether it was much or little depends on what value you place on reload torpedoes.