WesWorld

A proposed reconstruction of the Old Ve class Baltic protected cruisers as minelayers. Any Comments?

Ve Class, Nordmark Minelayer cruisers laid down 1912 (Engine 1930)

Displacement:
5,428 t light; 5,620 t standard; 6,957 t normal; 8,027 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
456.00 ft / 456.00 ft x 52.00 ft x 21.00 ft (normal load)
138.99 m / 138.99 m x 15.85 m x 6.40 m

Armament:
4 - 5.90" / 150 mm guns (2x2 guns), 102.69lbs / 46.58kg shells, 1930 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
4 - 4.33" / 110 mm guns in single mounts, 40.61lbs / 18.42kg shells, 1930 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
8 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (2x4 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1930 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1930 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 588 lbs / 266 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 6.00" / 152 mm 360.00 ft / 109.73 m 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 121 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 6.00" / 152 mm 3.00" / 76 mm 3.00" / 76 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
4th: 1.00" / 25 mm - -

- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 6.00" / 152 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 44,384 shp / 33,110 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 8,400nm at 18.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,406 tons

Complement:
380 - 495

Cost:
£0.440 million / $1.760 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 73 tons, 1.1 %
Armour: 1,582 tons, 22.7 %
- Belts: 528 tons, 7.6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 139 tons, 2.0 %
- Armour Deck: 868 tons, 12.5 %
- Conning Tower: 47 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 1,345 tons, 19.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,127 tons, 30.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,529 tons, 22.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 4.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
9,705 lbs / 4,402 Kg = 94.5 x 5.9 " / 150 mm shells or 1.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.21
Metacentric height 2.7 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 13.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.19
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.489
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.77 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.35 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 23.07 ft / 7.03 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 14.68 ft / 4.47 m
- Mid (50 %): 14.68 ft / 4.47 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 14.68 ft / 4.47 m
- Stern: 14.68 ft / 4.47 m
- Average freeboard: 15.35 ft / 4.68 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 76.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 115.1 %
Waterplane Area: 15,642 Square feet or 1,453 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 135 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 83 lbs/sq ft or 405 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.59
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate


Ve, Vidar, Vale

My comment would be that you could probably shave a bit of range, if you're planning to keep these ships in the Baltic, and pick up a bit more mine-laying tonnage. Other than that, look OK to me.... (even if this idea sounds awfully familiar.

It should be awfully familiar, but then I'm getting 3 ships for just over the price of 2 brand new ones. Plus with the rebuild of these ships I can build 2 more new Light cruisers in the Odin class in 1930.
The ships will also be working in the Falklands / South Georgia and the North Sea, so a reduction in range will not be considered, as yet, though if the bow is rebuilt

While I understand your math (based on WW rules) these are still hulls that saw about 20 years of extensive use and I wonder if there are other reasons to re-use them? I also wonder if they can actually be reconstructed as radical as it seems but I may be wrong so I´d like to know what kind of modifications you choosed. Can you provide a list? Thanks.

Jobs done to Ve class cruisers to convert them to minelayers

-Removal of rear 150mm guns and turrets
-addition of new AA suite in place of old guns (4.33" guns replaced with new model AA equivilant, though these might be changed to DP
-Replacement of engines to allow ships to make 28knots, and 18knots cruising speed.
-Improvement of deck armour (probably to be less than currently simmed
-fitting out to deploy mines.
-Reconstruction of Bow considered

Go for a smaller, more capable and newer ship. It'll work better, and be fairly good as a high speed transport.


Minelayer laid down 1930

Displacement:
3,820 t light; 3,930 t standard; 4,083 t normal; 4,206 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
569.38 ft / 557.74 ft x 46.49 ft x 13.78 ft (normal load)
173.55 m / 170.00 m x 14.17 m x 4.20 m

Armament:
4 - 4.33" / 110 mm guns (2x2 guns), 40.61lbs / 18.42kg shells, 1930 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
2 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (1x2 guns), 1.50lbs / 0.68kg shells, 1930 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mount
on centreline aft
Weight of broadside 165 lbs / 75 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 300

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.39" / 10 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -
2nd: 0.39" / 10 mm - -

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 90,000 shp / 67,140 Kw = 39.15 kts
Range 1,000nm at 20.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 276 tons

Complement:
255 - 332

Cost:
£2.123 million / $8.493 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 21 tons, 0.5 %
Armour: 5 tons, 0.1 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 5 tons, 0.1 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 2,547 tons, 62.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 947 tons, 23.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 263 tons, 6.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 7.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
747 lbs / 339 Kg = 18.4 x 4.3 " / 110 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.57
Metacentric height 3.4 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 10.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.03
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.82

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.400
Length to Beam Ratio: 12.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.92 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 61 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 60
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Mid (30 %): 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Stern: 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
- Average freeboard: 14.88 ft / 4.54 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 213.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 175.6 %
Waterplane Area: 16,564 Square feet or 1,539 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 69 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 37 lbs/sq ft or 183 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 0.51
- Overall: 0.50
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is extremely poor
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

Another *snap-crack*? ;o)

But you´re right. This one would be better suited for the task. Some kind of MANXMAN-ML...

At least its affordable when it breaks. I was thinking MANXMAN as well, just slightly larger for the speed.

Revised Design, a ship of the Manxman type proposed here isn't required by Nordmark, and would be not really suited for service with the Navy. These however can serve alongside the mainfleet, and have strength enough to be able to survive if jumped by destroyers. These ships can also act as fast transports.

Ve Class, Nordmark Minelayer cruisers laid down 1912 (Engine 1930)

Displacement:
5,197 t light; 5,389 t standard; 6,957 t normal; 8,212 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
456.00 ft / 456.00 ft x 52.00 ft x 21.00 ft (normal load)
138.99 m / 138.99 m x 15.85 m x 6.40 m

Armament:
4 - 5.90" / 150 mm guns (2x2 guns), 102.69lbs / 46.58kg shells, 1912 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
4 - 4.33" / 110 mm guns in single mounts, 40.61lbs / 18.42kg shells, 1930 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
8 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (2x4 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1930 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1930 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 588 lbs / 266 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 6.00" / 152 mm 360.00 ft / 109.73 m 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 121 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 6.00" / 152 mm 3.00" / 76 mm 3.00" / 76 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
4th: 1.00" / 25 mm - -

- Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 6.00" / 152 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 44,384 shp / 33,110 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 7,500nm at 20.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,823 tons

Complement:
380 - 495

Cost:
£0.432 million / $1.727 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 73 tons, 1.1 %
Armour: 1,148 tons, 16.5 %
- Belts: 528 tons, 7.6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 139 tons, 2.0 %
- Armour Deck: 434 tons, 6.2 %
- Conning Tower: 47 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 1,345 tons, 19.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,130 tons, 30.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,760 tons, 25.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 7.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
9,276 lbs / 4,208 Kg = 90.3 x 5.9 " / 150 mm shells or 1.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.19
Metacentric height 2.6 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 13.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.19
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.02

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.489
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.77 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.35 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 23.07 ft / 7.03 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 14.68 ft / 4.47 m
- Mid (50 %): 14.68 ft / 4.47 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 14.68 ft / 4.47 m
- Stern: 14.68 ft / 4.47 m
- Average freeboard: 15.35 ft / 4.68 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 79.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 115.1 %
Waterplane Area: 15,642 Square feet or 1,453 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 141 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 83 lbs/sq ft or 405 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.59
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

Ve, Vidar, Vale

Better, methinks.

Thanks

Ve Class, Nordmark Minelayer cruisers laid down 1912 (Engine 1929)

Displacement:
5,326 t light; 5,518 t standard; 6,957 t normal; 8,108 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
456.00 ft / 456.00 ft x 52.00 ft x 21.00 ft (normal load)
138.99 m / 138.99 m x 15.85 m x 6.40 m

Armament:
4 - 5.90" / 150 mm guns (2x2 guns), 102.69lbs / 46.58kg shells, 1912 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
4 - 4.33" / 110 mm guns in single mounts, 40.61lbs / 18.42kg shells, 1930 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
8 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (2x4 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1930 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1930 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 588 lbs / 266 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 6.00" / 152 mm 360.00 ft / 109.73 m 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 121 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 6.00" / 152 mm 3.00" / 76 mm 3.00" / 76 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
4th: 1.00" / 25 mm - -

- Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 6.00" / 152 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 44,384 shp / 33,110 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 6,800nm at 20.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,591 tons

Complement:
380 - 495

Cost:
£0.439 million / $1.756 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 73 tons, 1.1 %
Armour: 1,148 tons, 16.5 %
- Belts: 528 tons, 7.6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 139 tons, 2.0 %
- Armour Deck: 434 tons, 6.2 %
- Conning Tower: 47 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 1,363 tons, 19.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,141 tons, 30.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,631 tons, 23.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 600 tons, 8.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
8,901 lbs / 4,037 Kg = 86.7 x 5.9 " / 150 mm shells or 1.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
Metacentric height 2.5 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 13.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.19
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.489
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.77 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.35 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 23.07 ft / 7.03 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 14.68 ft / 4.47 m
- Mid (50 %): 14.68 ft / 4.47 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 14.68 ft / 4.47 m
- Stern: 14.68 ft / 4.47 m
- Average freeboard: 15.35 ft / 4.68 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 81.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 115.1 %
Waterplane Area: 15,642 Square feet or 1,453 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 137 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 83 lbs/sq ft or 407 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.59
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

Ve, Vidar, Vale