WesWorld

Due to the recent accident the RAN has begun to explore AA Cruisers options.

Which of the following might be better? The last one is an overgrown DL the other two are based on regular cruiser designs.


Adelaide, Australia AA Cruiser laid down 1933

Displacement:
5,231 t light; 5,497 t standard; 6,912 t normal; 8,045 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
580.79 ft / 575.00 ft x 55.00 ft x 17.00 ft (normal load)
177.02 m / 175.26 m x 16.76 m x 5.18 m

Armament:
21 - 4.70" / 119 mm guns (7x3 guns), 51.91lbs / 23.55kg shells, 1933 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread, 3 raised mounts
32 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (8x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1933 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread
20 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (10x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1933 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 1,157 lbs / 525 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 190
12 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2.90" / 74 mm 400.00 ft / 121.92 m 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 107 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.20" / 30 mm - -

- Armour deck: 1.20" / 30 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 64,893 shp / 48,411 Kw = 33.00 kts
Range 15,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,548 tons

Complement:
378 - 492

Cost:
£2.692 million / $10.766 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 145 tons, 2.1 %
Armour: 876 tons, 12.7 %
- Belts: 333 tons, 4.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 47 tons, 0.7 %
- Armour Deck: 465 tons, 6.7 %
- Conning Tower: 31 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 1,891 tons, 27.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,270 tons, 32.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,681 tons, 24.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 0.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
7,734 lbs / 3,508 Kg = 149.0 x 4.7 " / 119 mm shells or 1.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.43
Metacentric height 3.8 ft / 1.2 m
Roll period: 11.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.19
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.23

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.450
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.45 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 27.44 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 9.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 2.46 ft / 0.75 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Forecastle (17 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Mid (50 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Quarterdeck (19 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Stern: 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Average freeboard: 18.45 ft / 5.62 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 106.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 144.4 %
Waterplane Area: 20,955 Square feet or 1,947 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 118 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 70 lbs/sq ft or 339 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.79
- Longitudinal: 1.06
- Overall: 0.81
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily


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Adelaide, Australia AA Cruiser laid down 1933

Displacement:
4,710 t light; 4,923 t standard; 6,251 t normal; 7,313 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
555.79 ft / 550.00 ft x 52.00 ft x 17.00 ft (normal load)
169.40 m / 167.64 m x 15.85 m x 5.18 m

Armament:
14 - 4.70" / 119 mm guns (7x2 guns), 51.91lbs / 23.55kg shells, 1933 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread, 3 raised mounts
32 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (8x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1933 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread
20 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (10x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1933 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 794 lbs / 360 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 190
12 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2.90" / 74 mm 370.00 ft / 112.78 m 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 103 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.90" / 48 mm - -

- Armour deck: 1.20" / 30 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 61,879 shp / 46,162 Kw = 33.00 kts
Range 15,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,390 tons

Complement:
350 - 456

Cost:
£2.367 million / $9.467 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 99 tons, 1.6 %
Armour: 818 tons, 13.1 %
- Belts: 309 tons, 4.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 60 tons, 1.0 %
- Armour Deck: 421 tons, 6.7 %
- Conning Tower: 29 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 1,803 tons, 28.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,939 tons, 31.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,541 tons, 24.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 0.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
6,491 lbs / 2,944 Kg = 125.0 x 4.7 " / 119 mm shells or 1.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.43
Metacentric height 3.5 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 11.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.15
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.450
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.58 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.81 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 9.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 2.46 ft / 0.75 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Forecastle (17 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Mid (50 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Quarterdeck (19 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Stern: 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Average freeboard: 17.81 ft / 5.43 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 107.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 128.4 %
Waterplane Area: 18,950 Square feet or 1,761 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 119 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 64 lbs/sq ft or 313 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.77
- Longitudinal: 1.08
- Overall: 0.80
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

********************************************

Adelaide, Australia AA Cruiser laid down 1934

Displacement:
3,882 t light; 4,088 t standard; 4,680 t normal; 5,153 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
522.10 ft / 520.00 ft x 50.00 ft x 15.00 ft (normal load)
159.14 m / 158.50 m x 15.24 m x 4.57 m

Armament:
10 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (5x2 guns), 52.58lbs / 23.85kg shells, 1934 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, majority aft, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (2x2 guns), 52.58lbs / 23.85kg shells, 1934 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
8 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (2x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1934 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread
10 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (5x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1934 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 754 lbs / 342 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 250
8 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2.00" / 51 mm 420.00 ft / 128.02 m 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 124 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.20" / 30 mm - -

- Armour deck: 1.00" / 25 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 51,936 shp / 38,745 Kw = 33.00 kts
Range 7,900nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,065 tons

Complement:
282 - 367

Cost:
£2.083 million / $8.330 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 94 tons, 2.0 %
Armour: 574 tons, 12.3 %
- Belts: 235 tons, 5.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 27 tons, 0.6 %
- Armour Deck: 311 tons, 6.7 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 1,494 tons, 31.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,680 tons, 35.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 798 tons, 17.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 40 tons, 0.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
3,660 lbs / 1,660 Kg = 69.6 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 0.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.28
Metacentric height 2.8 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 12.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.37
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.420
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.40 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.21 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Forecastle (30 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Mid (50 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m (15.00 ft / 4.57 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Stern: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Average freeboard: 17.60 ft / 5.36 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 121.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 147.4 %
Waterplane Area: 16,828 Square feet or 1,563 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 62 lbs/sq ft or 305 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.72
- Longitudinal: 1.19
- Overall: 0.75
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Drawing of first cruiser, second one is similar but with twin mounts.



Why does it get resized?

Historically, I can't think of any large triple turrets that worked well as AA mountings, so I'd restrict myself to the twin mountings.

OMG!!!

Good lord....where to start.

Despite what SS says, I don't think you can cram that many guns on a 4000/5000 ton hull and have adequate room for everything else AND get a 15000 nm @ 15 kts range.

The torps are not really needed if shes intended to be an AA cruiser.

I'd stick to a 10x4.7" (5x2) design and up the speed to 35 knots. A 6000nm@15 range would be more realistic for a 5000 ton cruiser I would think.

For a good AA cruiser you need an 8.000ton ship with 4x2x4.7"(or 5.1"?) guns. Its just not possible to squeeze it onto a lower tonnage. Large amounts of directors and secondary systems + extra ammunition + stability problems lead to a much larger ship. You seemed to have got an Atlanta, then shaved 2000tons off an already too-restrained and overloaded design.

Picture probably resized due to large size

Hey RA,

you´re right but probably taking this too serious? ;o)

Regarding the drawing: What scale is it and aren´t those turrets waaaay too small?

True. Maybe better to stick with an armament of 3" guns?

Quoted

Good lord....where to start.

OMG!!!

You havent seen anything. My first design actually mounted a 4" secondary!!!

Quoted

Regarding the drawing: What scale is it and aren´t those turrets waaaay too small?

Actually I think the ship is too big.

Quoted

I'd stick to a 10x4.7" (5x2) design and up the speed to 35 knots. A 6000nm@15 range would be more realistic for a 5000 ton cruiser I would think

Well my DL has an 8,000 mile range and only 33 kts. My DL also has 7x4.7" and two directors in 2,000 tons. The US also had 2,000 ton DL mounting 8x5".

I guess Ill go with an englared version of the second one.

About the torps. She is a "cruiser" and all cruisers are required to have torpedoes wheter they need them or not.

Quoted

Actually I think the ship is too big.

Yes. Looks like a 20,000 ton ship armed with 4.7 inch guns. :-)

My Anti-Manzo cruiser would be an unarmed vessel, painted bright white with a large bull's eye on each side of the hull. The Japanese equivalent for "LAND HERE!" would be painted on the deck and it and the ship would be constantly illuminated by extremely powerful spotlights.

The last design might be worthwhile if the beam mounts were replaced with 40mm quads; can't comment on the drawings as the firewall is blocking them here, but look forward to seeing them later.

Latest version, Would this work? guns fixed.

Adelaide, Australia AA Cruiser laid down 1933

Displacement:
4,721 t light; 4,923 t standard; 6,251 t normal; 7,313 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
555.79 ft / 550.00 ft x 52.00 ft x 17.00 ft (normal load)
169.40 m / 167.64 m x 15.85 m x 5.18 m

Armament:
12 - 4.70" / 119 mm guns (6x2 guns), 51.91lbs / 23.55kg shells, 1933 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts
32 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (8x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1933 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread
20 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (10x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1933 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 690 lbs / 313 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 190
12 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2.90" / 74 mm 390.00 ft / 118.87 m 7.00 ft / 2.13 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 109 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.90" / 48 mm - -

- Armour deck: 1.20" / 30 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 61,879 shp / 46,162 Kw = 33.00 kts
Range 15,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,390 tons

Complement:
350 - 456

Cost:
£2.317 million / $9.268 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 86 tons, 1.4 %
Armour: 833 tons, 13.3 %
- Belts: 323 tons, 5.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 60 tons, 1.0 %
- Armour Deck: 421 tons, 6.7 %
- Conning Tower: 29 tons, 0.5 %
Machinery: 1,803 tons, 28.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,909 tons, 30.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,530 tons, 24.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 90 tons, 1.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
6,506 lbs / 2,951 Kg = 125.3 x 4.7 " / 119 mm shells or 1.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.41
Metacentric height 3.4 ft / 1.0 m
Roll period: 11.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.14
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.450
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.58 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.81 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 9.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 2.46 ft / 0.75 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Forecastle (17 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Mid (50 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Quarterdeck (19 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Stern: 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Average freeboard: 17.81 ft / 5.43 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 106.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 128.4 %
Waterplane Area: 18,950 Square feet or 1,761 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 120 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 63 lbs/sq ft or 308 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.76
- Longitudinal: 1.06
- Overall: 0.79
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

12 guns, 7 mounts? How's that work?

For a "serious" AA cruiser ;-) I'd say she's a bit undersized for her armament.

12 - 4.70" / 119 mm guns (6x2 guns), 51.91lbs / 23.55kg shells, 1933 Model Dual purpose guns in

_deck mounts_

on centreline, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts

folks, there is a major bug here, which explains why this ship can mount so many guns ....

Actually I would call that a design flaw.
:-)

Hell I don't even need a bug to tell me that, a 4900 ton hull simply won't have the room.

Her range is still way to high IMO.

Atlanta had the following stats...

6,800 tons
16x5" guns in 8 turrets (later reduced to 12 in 6 turrets)
similar hull demensions 541/53/20 as opposed to the 555/52/17 of the Australian design.
8500nm@15 kts
32.5 kts

Hate to critisize but I doubt you can get a better design 7 years earlier than the Atlanta's, on a hull 1,800 tons lighter.

If you want a small disposable design you'll have to drop some turrets, otherwise you'll have to design a bigger ship to fit the armament you currently want.

jaysus, Wes! Do you have a drawing of that? HMS Agincourt light?

Which, Atlanta? It was a real ship, just look up USS Atlanta on Google. Have to be careful to look at the CL-51, not the later CL-104 (which looks to be a Cleveland-type ," CL), but there's certainly plenty of info on her. 5centerline twin 5"/38 turrets, 2 more twin turrets on the sides aft of midships. They look a lot like a slightly larger Dido-class CL, with the additional side turrets aft.