WesWorld

Thoughts?

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DD31, Filipino Frigate laid down 1931

Displacement:
1,949 t light; 2,049 t standard; 2,325 t normal; 2,545 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
410.97 ft / 393.70 ft x 39.37 ft x 13.12 ft (normal load)
125.26 m / 120.00 m x 12.00 m x 4.00 m

Armament:
8 - 4.53" / 115 mm guns (4x2 guns), 48.50lbs / 22.00kg shells, 1931 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 1.38" / 35.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1.32lbs / 0.60kg shells, 1931 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts
4 - 0.54" / 13.7 mm guns (1x4 guns), 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1931 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mount
on centreline aft, all raised guns - superfiring
4 - 0.54" / 13.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1931 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts

Weight of broadside 377 lbs / 171 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 250

8 - 24.0" / 610 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.97" / 50 mm 0.98" / 25 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
2nd: 0.79" / 20 mm - -
3rd: 0.59" / 15 mm - -

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 42,500 shp / 31,705 Kw = 34.12 kts
Range 5,500nm at 15.00 kts (Bunkerage = 496 tons)

Complement:
166 - 217

Cost:
£1.148 million / $4.590 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 47 tons, 2.0 %
Armour: 33 tons, 1.4 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 33 tons, 1.4 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 1,108 tons, 47.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 710 tons, 30.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 375 tons, 16.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 2.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
685 lbs / 311 Kg = 14.8 x 4.5 " / 115 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.21
Metacentric height 1.7 ft / 0.5 m
Roll period: 12.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.49
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.04

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.400
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.95 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 67
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 18.86 ft / 5.75 m
- Mid (40 %): 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
- Stern: 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
- Average freeboard: 16.32 ft / 4.98 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 172.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 100.9 %
Waterplane Area: 9,902 Square feet or 920 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 77 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 39 lbs/sq ft or 190 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.62
- Overall: 0.56
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

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DD31, Filipino Destroyer laid down 1931

Displacement:
1,250 t light; 1,304 t standard; 1,438 t normal; 1,545 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
344.21 ft / 328.08 ft x 32.81 ft x 12.30 ft (normal load)
104.91 m / 100.00 m x 10.00 m x 3.75 m

Armament:
4 - 4.53" / 115 mm guns in single mounts, 48.50lbs / 22.00kg shells, 1931 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 1.38" / 35.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1.32lbs / 0.60kg shells, 1931 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 0.54" / 13.7 mm guns (1x4 guns), 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1931 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mount
on centreline aft, all raised guns - superfiring
4 - 0.54" / 13.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1931 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring

Weight of broadside 200 lbs / 91 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 225

6 - 24.0" / 610 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.18" / 30 mm 0.79" / 20 mm -
2nd: 0.79" / 20 mm - -
3rd: 0.59" / 15 mm - -

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 33,500 shp / 24,991 Kw = 34.04 kts
Range 3,500nm at 15.00 kts (Bunkerage = 241 tons)

Complement:
116 - 151

Cost:
£0.727 million / $2.909 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 24 tons, 1.7 %
Armour: 14 tons, 1.0 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 14 tons, 1.0 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 734 tons, 51.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 463 tons, 32.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 188 tons, 13.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 15 tons, 1.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
385 lbs / 175 Kg = 8.3 x 4.5 " / 115 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 1.1 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 12.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.51
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.93

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.380
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.02 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 68 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 75
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.51 ft / 6.25 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Mid (40 %): 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Stern: 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Average freeboard: 14.44 ft / 4.40 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 179.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 75.8 %
Waterplane Area: 6,809 Square feet or 633 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 65 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 34 lbs/sq ft or 167 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 2.23
- Overall: 0.58
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

You'll be wanting a raised forecastle on those designs. Too small for flush decked ships.

Armament is ok, but I'm not sure as to the utility of the smaller one. Maybe better to get up to 1600tons and use the extra size as just extra size. Bigger is better, especially for seakeeping, but also stability and room for growth later on.

That's a lot of firepower in small hulls.

Also, frigates are smaller than DD's (They used to be the same as DE's)

To my knowledge Frigates are upsized Corvettes. I don't think they will need Torps to defend convoys if thats the intended mission.

Personally I'd ditch a 115mm mount for an additional 35mm.

I'd say the DD could use additional AA guns.

At over 2000 tons I can see you're not calling it a cruiser.

Cheers,

Heh, just noticed that. If thats the case, sizewise when do they call them cruisers?

I think swaping the designations of each design would set things right.

Designations vary from period and navy. Historically a frigate is a fast fleet scout, normally 1-decker. Today frigates are primarily anti-submarine vessels. It just so happens that I named my last super-destroyers after historical Italian frigates; the names are indicative of their role.

I would expect the reason the frigate is not reported as a cruiser is that it's expected to be reported as 2000 tons standard displacement or less for Cleito purposes.

Both DO have raised forecastles, they just have smooth gunwale lines. If you look at the actual freeboard, they both have higher forecastles than mid-deck lines (1.25m and 1.0m higher respectively), but because they don't have a sharp break between the decks, SS reports them as having a "flush deck". It's somewhat misleading reporting by SS, though I don't know if there's a correct naval term for what's going on here.

Actually the deck is flush - it just slopes up torwards the bow. I believe the term is 'sheer'?

I'll see how they sim out with deck-breaks.

As for designations, the large one is a CT 'Type A Destroyer'. MdF designations for cruisers/destroyers/subchasers in this size range are:

1,600-2,250 tons: Fragatas

900-1,600 tons: Destructores

600-900 tons OR any under 1,600t with speed 24knt or less: Destructores de acompañamiento

under 600 tons: Cazadores de submarinos

DD31, Filipino Destroyer laid down 1931

Displacement:
1,590 t light; 1,671 t standard; 1,871 t normal; 2,031 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
390.90 ft / 377.30 ft x 35.27 ft x 12.30 ft (normal load)
119.15 m / 115.00 m x 10.75 m x 3.75 m

Armament:
6 - 4.53" / 115 mm guns (3x2 guns), 48.50lbs / 22.00kg shells, 1931 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
2 - 1.38" / 35.0 mm guns (1x2 guns), 1.32lbs / 0.60kg shells, 1931 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mount
on centreline aft, all raised guns - superfiring
4 - 1.38" / 35.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1.32lbs / 0.60kg shells, 1931 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all aft
8 - 0.54" / 13.7 mm guns (2x4 guns), 0.11lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1931 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all forward, all raised mounts
4 - 0.54" / 13.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.08lbs / 0.04kg shells, 1931 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side ends, evenly spread

Weight of broadside 300 lbs / 136 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 250

6 - 24.0" / 610 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.57" / 40 mm 0.79" / 20 mm -
2nd: 0.79" / 20 mm - -
3rd: 0.79" / 20 mm - -
4th: 0.59" / 15 mm - -

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 37,500 shp / 27,975 Kw = 34.07 kts
Range 4,500nm at 15.00 kts (Bunkerage = 361 tons)

Complement:
141 - 184

Cost:
£0.932 million / $3.728 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 36 tons, 1.9 %
Armour: 20 tons, 1.1 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 20 tons, 1.1 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 913 tons, 48.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 572 tons, 30.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 281 tons, 15.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 2.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
515 lbs / 234 Kg = 11.1 x 4.5 " / 115 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.18
Metacentric height 1.4 ft / 0.4 m
Roll period: 12.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.51
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.400
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.70 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.34 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 22.15 ft / 6.75 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Mid (45 %): 18.04 ft / 5.50 m (11.48 ft / 3.50 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
- Stern: 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
- Average freeboard: 14.76 ft / 4.50 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 176.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 95.5 %
Waterplane Area: 8,501 Square feet or 790 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 72 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 36 lbs/sq ft or 175 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.55
- Overall: 0.56
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

While the original design of the 2,000ts variant of DD31 looked like a copy of the RSAN design DL28 in many ways (very similar dimensions, similar layout overall including same main armament, comparable other weaponry, similar speed etc.) and thus would be rated as a good one by RSAN designers (;o)) the much smaller 1,300ts design is probably more appealing for a power like the Philippines.

The poor seaboat rating is hardly a problem (in general I think DDs in WesWorld are much better seaboats than historical designs) and only her relatively short legs could cause some concerns. Except of this shortcomming she seems to be a vessel worth the money.

The "1,600ts"-variant finally is of different character. While surely a sound design she´s not as interesting as those posted before. She´s nothing special, methinks. There´s nothing really appealing.

Are you serious about their main armament being DP?

Probably not true DP yet - I'm thinking ~60° elevation.

The 2000-tonner is tempting, however it's only 500 tons smaller than the identically-armed minelaying cruiser I have planned for the same year...so it's (unfortunatly) somewhat superfluous. Perhaps a few years further down the road...

As for the "little one", it was to be part of a 'high/low mix' with the 2000t one. However as only one class of DDs are to be constructed, the bigger one seems better suited for carrier escort, and has more weight set aside for DCs and mines.

(Also the political factor - as the previous DD26 (Cerceta type is 1400t and 4x130mm, the little one would be seen as a retrograde step by many.)

I'd go with the 1,600 ton design as shes the best of both worlds and isn't a retrograde step as you said, allthough I'd prefer to see an extra twin 4.53" shoe horned in at the expence of some AA guns.