WesWorld

Gosh just when I though things were being simplified, a hybrid ships clause?

Also....

Quoted

Cruiser tonnage ----------------- No
Capital Ship Definition --------- No
Hull limits vs tonnage ---------- No
Minor Power Limits -------------- No

Is the Philippines voting no to maintain the status quo?

Selling ships has been catigorized in two separate threads, new ships and old. Atlantis and the Philippines seem to have prefered them to be included in one preposal under sub clauses.

Here they are...

Preposal A) South African preposal reguarding used ships

To achieve a compromise we propose to allow selling ships among CT signatories without restrictions, no matter how old a units is.

Selling ships to non-signatories should be restricted to cruisers category B and smaller combatants.

Preposal B)Australian preposal reguarding new ships

1.- No capital ship larger than 30,000tons or mounting guns larger than 14"
2.- No Aircraft carrier larger then 15,000 tons
3.- No more than 2 capital ships displacing more than 20,000 tons and/or faster than 24 knots can be sold.
4.- No more than 2 carrier larger than 10,000 tons may be sold."

Preposal C)Philippino preposal reguarding new and used ships.

With regard to the sales of used and new ships, Treaty signatories are allowed to sell vessels of any type and of any number to other Treaty nations.

However sales to a non-Treaty nation, of new and used vessels combined, by all Treaty signatories combined are restricted to Indian capital ship limits and Greek limits for all other categories, and used vessels must have passed their 'replacement date'.

Lets vote on either of these preposals. List your votes for each preposal. I'll start off...

Atlanean vote:

Preposal A) Undecided, leaning towards No
Preposal B) Undecided, leaning towards Yes
Preposal C) Yes

American vote:

A: No
B: No
C: Yes

Philippino vote:

A: No
B: No
C: Si

Quoted

Gosh just when I though things were being simplified, a hybrid ships clause?

That proposal of Garcia's seemed to quickly get snowed under by various other Capital Ship related arguments, and was, apparently, forgotten...

...as was that 'Hull limits vs tonnage' was one of my own proposals!! So that one should be a 'Si' vote.


As for the others: 'Cruiser tonnage' - the Australian proposal - don't see the point; 'Capital Ship Definition' would make carriers count against capital ship hull numbers, wouldn't it? (at least that's how Garcia understands it ;-) ) and the 'minor power limits', could take it or leave it (would prefer to 'abstain' but, pressed for a yes/no vote, the vote is no...).

A few proposals would, if accepted, interact with each other.

I think I've summarized the relevant proposals that we're voting on, even those which appear simple or so unpopular their demise is assured. Well, except for "Compliance", where we never even got to a particular proposal. I just didn't bother with that one.

So...hopefully this resolves the confusion, sorry it took so long, etc. Please review the summaries in "Part 5 Treaty Agreements" and amend your votes in your original voting post in this thread.

If anybody can indicate when we might hear from RAM or Commodore Green, we will need their input.

Yes on all except the following:

Yes:
Hybirds

Abstain:
Filipino limits
Compliance
Hull limits vs tonnage

No:
Capital ship limits
Minor Powers Limits (unless it applies to Australia)
6in Guns
Capital Ship Definition
Submarines

Question/Clarification/Proposal:

"The delegation from India suggested that abstentions counted as "No" votes. This is based on the premiss that all treaty members must say yes to get the treaty changed. Chile finds this a little absurd, as an abstention means that said nation does not care one way or the other. The voting should only count the 'yes' or 'no' votes for treaty changes and amendments. And abstain is an abstain and will not stop a change."

Where should we comment on the hybrid ships proposal? I had totally missed that during the discussions. Hybrids would be "fluffy" for the Roosevelt administration. He had a considerable interest in the concept and there were several US design studies during the 1930's into hybrid battleships. Perhaps there should be an aircraft limit? My CV's have about 25% of their standard displacement in Misc tonnage, maybe a hybrid can't have more than 13%? Without a limit, there's nothing to stop 40,000 ton super carriers from being built.

As for the selling ships proposals:
A: No
B: No
C: Yes

Germany's advisory vote would be:

As for the selling ships proposals:
A: No
B: Yes
C: Yes

Hybrid ships: Yes

Quoted

"The delegation from India suggested that abstentions counted as "No" votes. This is based on the premiss that all treaty members must say yes to get the treaty changed. Chile finds this a little absurd, as an abstention means that said nation does not care one way or the other. The voting should only count the 'yes' or 'no' votes for treaty changes and amendments. And abstain is an abstain and will not stop a change."

The precise wording of the clause is:

Quoted

If during the term of the present Treaty the requirements of the national security of any Contracting Power in respect of naval defence are, in the opinion of that Power, materially affected by any change of circumstances, the Contracting Powers will, at the request of such Power, meet in conference with a view to the reconsideration of the provisions of the Treaty and its amendment by mutual agreement.

I recognize that the paragraph after this is the one that refers to this conference - but it doesn't talk about what kind of support is required for a change to be made. Therefore, I assume this bit about mutual agreement applies there as well - otherwise, treaty signatories can find themselves bound to something that they personally detest but a majority of the other Powers like.

And yes, mutual agreement means everybody agrees - not some nations agree and the others can't be bothered to say yes or no. As far as India is concerned, anything other than an "aye" from all Contracting Powers is a defeat of the proposed amendment.

Canis: the Hybrid thing came up briefly in a capital ship definition thread. I don't think it was discussed at all afterward. On that basis alone, India voted against the proposal, but probably would have anyway.

The hybrid discussion was near (if not at) the start of the Great 'What Is A Capital Ship' Debate, which snowed it under quite thoroughly.

As for 40,000t carriers - most likely in 1930, were a country to choose to build them in place of battleships (which would be the case here, counting against C.S. hull numbers), they would be laughed at by everyone else.

It would fit, though, with the secret Italian analysis on the value of carriers versus battleships. It would also allow the historical German cruiser-carrier concepts.

Quoted

As far as India is concerned, anything other than an "aye" from all Contracting Powers is a defeat of the proposed amendment.

"Somehow that doesn't sound reasonable. To Abstain is to vote No. Do the other treaty nations follow this same line of reasoning?"

Which is why I typed "Neither for nor against" with experimental subs. Either way is fine by me.
Abstain can be considered by some as a "I don't want anything to do with it" vote, which is how India looks at it.
BTW altered the colorful Japanese voting slightly over here to include the three different sale bits and the hybrid ships.
In regards of the General Ship Definition bit: Rocky, you mentioned "but the proposal did not elaborate further" in regards of the carrier bit. That bit was a bit of a formality proposal because in a sense these two classes already exist (carriers in the 22,000-27,000 ton range and carriers <22,000 tons) but are not marked as such in the treaty. I was thinking about limiting the main gun caliber in the B class to 6 inch, but never gotten to that.
It is funny how my Capital ship limits proposal has been completely shaved down to just the "Equal Average Tonnage for All" bit.

Quoted

"Somehow that doesn't sound reasonable. To Abstain is to vote No. Do the other treaty nations follow this same line of reasoning?"

Germany does. After all, the Treaty is quite clear that unanimous agreement is required, and an abstention is not the same thing as agreement.

Your capital ship limits proposal is, so far as I know, in a different proposal besides the equal tonnage for all bit. Problem is that the proposal seemed to take place in a few threads simultaneously, which made it very difficult to track what was going on.

If you can post a correct summary as a reply to my own butchered version in the "Part 5" area, I'd appreciate it.

[OOC: Wonderful! Now you guys have me totally confused.]

Given the current confusion the SAE delegation leaves the room for some internal conference. Before they do so they let everbody know that bacause of the discussions votes by the SAE communicated at an earlier point are now obsolete and until the delegation returns the SAE automatically votes "No" on all topics except German and Australian limits even though this means full stop for all modifications.

[Sorry, but I really need to know what is voted on EXACTLY.]

No, it is actually fine this way. We'll keep it like that.

Current votes (if I read everything correctly) of all nations in alphabetical order. As you may notice, there are some question marks in some of the lists in regards of the sale of warships, the submarine question and the hybrid ships.


Atlantis
Germany limits ------------------ Yes
Australia/UK limits ------------- Yes
Museum Ships -------------------- Yes
Rebuilding/reconstruction ------- Yes
Training Ships ------------------ Yes
Experimental Submarines --------- Yes
Unrestricted vessels ------------ Yes
Filipino limits ----------------- Yes
6 inch guns --------------------- No
Cruiser tonnage ----------------- Yes
Capital Ship Definition --------- Yes
General Ship Definition --------- Yes
Hull limits vs tonnage ---------- Yes
Minor Power Limits -------------- Yes
Sales of warships (new + old) A – Undecided, leaning towards No
Sales of warships (new + old) B – Undecided, leaning towards Yes
Sales of warships (new + old) C - Yes
Capital ship limits ------------- Yes
Compliance ---------------------- No
Sub Hull/Displacement ----------- No
Hybrid ships -------------------- No

Australia
Germany limits ------------------ Yes
Australia/UK limits ------------- Yes
Museum Ships -------------------- Yes
Rebuilding/reconstruction ------- Yes
Training Ships ------------------ Yes
Experimental Submarines --------- Yes
Unrestricted vessels ------------ Yes
Filipino limits ----------------- Abstain
6 inch guns --------------------- No
Cruiser tonnage ----------------- Yes
Capital Ship Definition --------- No
General Ship Definition --------- Yes
Hull limits vs tonnage ---------- Abstain
Minor Power Limits -------------- No
Sales of warships (new + old) A – Yes
Sales of warships (new + old) B - Yes
Sales of warships (new + old) C - Yes
Capital ship limits ------------- No
Compliance ---------------------- Abstain
Sub Hull/Displacement ----------- No
Hybrid ships -------------------- Yes

France
Germany limits ------------------ Yes
Australia/UK limits ------------- Yes
Museum Ships -------------------- Yes
Rebuilding/reconstruction ------- Yes
Training Ships ------------------ Yes
Experimental Submarines --------- Yes
Unrestricted vessels ------------ Yes
Filipino limits ----------------- Yes
6 inch guns --------------------- No
Cruiser tonnage ----------------- No
Capital Ship Definition --------- No
General Ship Definition --------- Yes
Hull limits vs tonnage ---------- No
Minor Power Limits -------------- Yes
Sales of warships (new + old) A - ?
Sales of warships (new + old) B - ?
Sales of warships (new + old) C - ?
Capital ship limits ------------- No
Compliance ---------------------- No
Sub Hull/Displacement ----------- ?
Hybrid ships -------------------- ?

Germany
Germany limits ------------------ Yes
Australia/UK limits ------------- Yes
Museum Ships -------------------- Yes
Rebuilding/reconstruction ------- Yes
Training Ships ------------------ Yes
Experimental Submarines --------- Yes
Unrestricted vessels ------------ Yes
Filipino limits ----------------- Yes
6 inch guns --------------------- No
Cruiser tonnage ----------------- Yes
Capital Ship Definition --------- No
General Ship Definition --------- Yes
Hull limits vs tonnage ---------- No
Minor Power Limits -------------- Yes
Sales of warships (new + old) A - No
Sales of warships (new + old) B - Yes
Sales of warships (new + old) C - Yes
Capital ship limits ------------- No
Compliance ---------------------- No
Sub Hull/Displacement ----------- Yes
Hybrid ships -------------------- Yes

Greece
Germany limits ------------------ Yes
Australia/UK limits ------------- Yes
Museum Ships -------------------- Yes
Rebuilding/reconstruction ------- Yes
Training Ships ------------------ Yes
Experimental Submarines --------- Yes
Unrestricted vessels ------------ Yes
Filipino limits ----------------- Yes
6 inch guns --------------------- No
Cruiser tonnage ----------------- Yes
Capital Ship Definition --------- Yes
General Ship Definition --------- Yes
Hull limits vs tonnage ---------- Yes
Minor Power Limits -------------- No
Sales of warships (new + old) A - ?
Sales of warships (new + old) B - ?
Sales of warships (new + old) C - ?
Capital ship limits ------------- Yes
Compliance ---------------------- No
Sub Hull/Displacement ----------- ?
Hybrid ships -------------------- ?

India
Germany limits ------------------ Yes
Australia/UK limits ------------- Yes
Museum Ships -------------------- Yes
Rebuilding/reconstruction ------- Yes
Training Ships ------------------ Yes
Experimental Submarines --------- Yes
Unrestricted vessels ------------ Yes
Filipino limits ----------------- Yes
6 inch guns --------------------- No
Cruiser tonnage ----------------- Yes
Capital Ship Definition --------- No
General Ship Definition --------- No
Hull limits vs tonnage ---------- No
Minor Power Limits -------------- Yes
Sales of warships (new + old) A - No
Sales of warships (new + old) B - No
Sales of warships (new + old) C - Yes
Capital ship limits ------------- No
Compliance ---------------------- Yes
Sub Hull/Displacement ----------- Yes
Hybrid ships -------------------- No

Italy
Germany limits ------------------ Yes
Australia/UK limits ------------- Yes
Museum Ships -------------------- Yes
Rebuilding/reconstruction ------- Yes
Training Ships ------------------ Yes
Experimental Submarines --------- Yes
Unrestricted vessels ------------ Yes
Filipino limits ----------------- Yes
6 inch guns --------------------- No
Cruiser tonnage ----------------- No
Capital Ship Definition --------- No
General Ship Definition --------- No
Hull limits vs tonnage ---------- No
Minor Power Limits -------------- No
Sales of warships (new + old) A - Yes
Sales of warships (new + old) B - No
Sales of warships (new + old) C - No
Capital ship limits ------------- No
Compliance ---------------------- No
Sub Hull/Displacement ----------- ?
Hybrid ships -------------------- ?

Japan
Germany limits ------------------ Yes
Australia/UK limits ------------- Yes
Museum Ships -------------------- Yes
Rebuilding/reconstruction ------- Yes
Training Ships ------------------ Yes
Experimental Submarines --------- Fine either way.
Unrestricted vessels ------------ Yes
Filipino limits ----------------- Yes
6 inch guns --------------------- Yes
Cruiser tonnage ----------------- No
Capital Ship Definition --------- Yes
General Ship Definition --------- Yes
Hull limits vs tonnage ---------- No
Minor Power Limits -------------- Yes
Sales of warships (new + old) A - No
Sales of warships (new + old) B - No
Sales of warships (new + old) C - No
Capital ship limits ------------- Yes
Compliance ---------------------- No
Sub Hull/Displacement ----------- No
Hybrid ships -------------------- No

Nordmark
Germany limits ------------------ Yes
Australia/UK limits ------------- Yes
Museum Ships -------------------- Yes
Rebuilding/reconstruction ------- Yes
Training Ships ------------------ Yes
Experimental Submarines --------- Yes
Unrestricted vessels ------------ Yes
Filipino limits ----------------- Yes
6 inch guns --------------------- Yes
Cruiser tonnage ----------------- No
Capital Ship Definition --------- No
General Ship Definition --------- Yes
Hull limits vs tonnage ---------- No
Minor Power Limits -------------- Yes
Sales of warships (new + old) A - ?
Sales of warships (new + old) B - ?
Sales of warships (new + old) C - ?
Capital ship limits ------------- No
Compliance ---------------------- No
Sub Hull/Displacement ----------- ?
Hybrid ships -------------------- ?

Philippines
Germany limits ------------------ Yes
Australia/UK limits ------------- Yes
Museum Ships -------------------- Yes
Rebuilding/reconstruction ------- Yes
Training Ships ------------------ Yes
Experimental Submarines --------- Yes
Unrestricted vessels ------------ Yes
Filipino limits ----------------- Yes
6 inch guns --------------------- Yes
Cruiser tonnage ----------------- No
Capital Ship Definition --------- No
General Ship Definition --------- Yes
Hull limits vs tonnage ---------- Yes
Minor Power Limits -------------- No
Sales of warships (new + old) A - No
Sales of warships (new + old) B - No
Sales of warships (new + old) C - Yes
Capital ship limits ------------- Yes
Compliance ---------------------- No
Sub Hull/Displacement ----------- ?
Hybrid ships -------------------- Yes

Russia
Germany limits ------------------ Yes
Australia/UK limits ------------- Yes
Museum Ships -------------------- Yes
Rebuilding/reconstruction ------- Yes
Training Ships ------------------ Yes
Experimental Submarines --------- Yes
Unrestricted vessels ------------ Yes
Filipino limits ----------------- Yes
6 inch guns --------------------- No
Cruiser tonnage ----------------- No
Capital Ship Definition --------- No
General Ship Definition --------- Yes
Hull limits vs tonnage ---------- No
Minor Power Limits -------------- Yes
Sales of warships (new + old) A - ?
Sales of warships (new + old) B - ?
Sales of warships (new + old) C - ?
Capital ship limits ------------- No
Compliance ---------------------- No
Sub Hull/Displacement ----------- ?
Hybrid ships -------------------- ?

SAE
Germany limits ------------------ Yes
Australia/UK limits ------------- Yes
Museum Ships -------------------- Yes
Rebuilding/reconstruction ------- Undecided
Training Ships ------------------ Yes
Experimental Submarines --------- Yes
Unrestricted vessels ------------ Yes
Filipino limits ----------------- Yes
6 inch guns --------------------- No
Cruiser tonnage ----------------- No
Capital Ship Definition --------- No
General Ship Definition --------- No
Hull limits vs tonnage ---------- No
Minor Power Limits -------------- Yes
Sales of warships (new + old) A - ?
Sales of warships (new + old) B - ?
Sales of warships (new + old) C - ?
Capital ship limits ------------- No
Compliance ---------------------- No
Sub Hull/Displacement ----------- No
Hybrid ships -------------------- ?

USA
Germany limits ------------------ Yes
Australia/UK limits ------------- Yes
Museum Ships -------------------- Yes
Rebuilding/reconstruction ------- Yes
Training Ships ------------------ Yes
Experimental Submarines --------- Yes
Unrestricted vessels ------------ Yes
Filipino limits ----------------- Yes
6 inch guns --------------------- No
Cruiser tonnage ----------------- Yes
Capital Ship Definition --------- Yes
General Ship Definition --------- Yes
Hull limits vs tonnage ---------- Yes
Minor Power Limits -------------- Yes
Sales of warships (new + old) A - No
Sales of warships (new + old) B - No
Sales of warships (new + old) C - Yes
Capital ship limits ------------- Yes
Compliance ---------------------- No
Sub Hull/Displacement ----------- ?
Hybrid ships -------------------- Yes





Treaty Nations
----------------------------- AYE ------ NAY ---- Abstain/Undecided/etc
Germany limits -------------- 11 -------- 0 --------- 0
Australia/UK limits --------- 11 -------- 0 --------- 0
Museum Ships ---------------- 11 -------- 0 --------- 0
Rebuilding/reconstruction --- 11 -------- 0 --------- 0
Training Ships -------------- 11 -------- 0 --------- 0
Experimental Submarines ----- 10 -------- 0 --------- 1
Unrestricted vessels -------- 11 -------- 0 --------- 0
Filipino limits ------------- 11 -------- 0 --------- 0
6 inch guns ----------------- 3 --------- 8 --------- 0
Cruiser tonnage ------------- 4 --------- 7 --------- 0
Capital Ship Definition ----- 4 --------- 7 --------- 0
General Ship Definition ----- 8 --------- 3 --------- 0
Hull limits vs tonnage ------ 4 --------- 7 --------- 0
Minor Power Limits ---------- 8 --------- 3 --------- 0
Sales of warships A --------- 1 --------- 4 --------- 6
Sales of warships B --------- 0 --------- 5 --------- 6
Sales of warships C --------- 4 --------- 2 --------- 5
Capital ship limits --------- 5 --------- 6 --------- 0
Compliance ------------------ 1 --------- 10 -------- 0
Sub Hull/Displacement ------- 1 --------- 2 --------- 8
Hybrid ships ---------------- 2 --------- 2 --------- 7

Non Treaty Nations
----------------------------- AYE ------ NAY ---- Abstain/Undecided/etc
Germany limits -------------- 2 --------- 0 --------- 0
Australia/UK limits --------- 2 --------- 0 --------- 0
Museum Ships ---------------- 2 --------- 0 --------- 0
Rebuilding/reconstruction --- 2 --------- 0 --------- 0
Training Ships -------------- 2 --------- 0 --------- 0
Experimental Submarines ----- 2 --------- 0 --------- 0
Unrestricted vessels -------- 2 --------- 0 --------- 0
Filipino limits ------------- 1 --------- 0 --------- 1
6 inch guns ----------------- 0 --------- 2 --------- 0
Cruiser tonnage ------------- 2 --------- 0 --------- 0
Capital Ship Definition ----- 0 --------- 2 --------- 0
General Ship Definition ----- 2 --------- 0 --------- 0
Hull limits vs tonnage ------ 0 --------- 1 --------- 1
Minor Power Limits ---------- 1 --------- 1 --------- 0
Sales of warships A --------- 1 --------- 1 --------- 0
Sales of warships B --------- 2 --------- 0 --------- 0
Sales of warships C --------- 2 --------- 0 --------- 0
Capital ship limits --------- 0 --------- 2 --------- 0
Compliance ------------------ 0 --------- 1 --------- 1
Sub Hull/Displacement ------- 1 --------- 1 --------- 0
Hybrid ships ---------------- 2 --------- 0 --------- 0

Nordmark's vote updated

Germany limits ------------------ Yes
Australia/UK limits ------------- Yes
Museum Ships -------------------- Yes
Rebuilding/reconstruction ------- Yes
Training Ships ------------------ Yes
Experimental Submarines --------- Yes
Unrestricted vessels ------------ Yes
Filipino limits ----------------- Yes
6 inch guns --------------------- Yes
Cruiser tonnage ----------------- Yes
Capital Ship Definition --------- No
General Ship Definition --------- No
Hull limits vs tonnage ---------- No
Minor Power Limits -------------- Yes
Sales of warships (new + old) A - No
Sales of warships (new + old) B - Yes
Sales of warships (new + old) C - Yes
Capital ship limits ------------- Yes
Compliance ---------------------- No
Sub Hull/Displacement ----------- No
Hybrid ships -------------------- No

That leaves the Neatherland, Iberia, and the United Kingdom.