WesWorld

A potential replacement for the Texas, which while eligible for replacement now, can't be replaced until 10 years after the treaty went into effect. I'm also considering a refit of Texas, to keep her in service till the late 30's or early 40's.
This ship uses 16"/50's which have had barrel liners installed to make them 15"/54's or there abouts. This is pretty much the same procedure done historically to the 18"/48 in development when the Washington Treaty made it illegal. Weights used in simming it were those of 16" guns, but the shell weight is for a 15". It would be a political compromise, getting a 15" gun to sea to remove any stigma about having guns smaller than the treaty allows, while not going through the time and expense of designing a 15" gun from scratch. Obviously if the treaty collapses they could be upgraded to 16", but the US will not advertise that fact.

USS Georgia, United States Battleship laid down 1931

Displacement:
37,866 t light; 39,975 t standard; 41,105 t normal; 42,009 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
699.11 ft / 681.00 ft x 108.00 ft x 31.00 ft (normal load)
213.09 m / 207.57 m x 32.92 m x 9.45 m

Armament:
12 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (4x3 guns), 1,750.00lbs / 793.79kg shells, 1931 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (8x2 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1931 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1931 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 22,836 lbs / 10,358 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 431.00 ft / 131.37 m 12.47 ft / 3.80 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 97 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
3.00" / 76 mm 431.00 ft / 131.37 m 29.58 ft / 9.02 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 16.0" / 406 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 13.0" / 330 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm

- Armour deck: 6.00" / 152 mm, Conning tower: 13.00" / 330 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 80,590 shp / 60,120 Kw = 25.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,035 tons

Complement:
1,443 - 1,876

Cost:
£19.357 million / $77.428 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 3,302 tons, 8.0 %
Armour: 15,257 tons, 37.1 %
- Belts: 3,089 tons, 7.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,415 tons, 3.4 %
- Armament: 4,274 tons, 10.4 %
- Armour Deck: 6,146 tons, 15.0 %
- Conning Tower: 334 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 2,410 tons, 5.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 16,748 tons, 40.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,239 tons, 7.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 0.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
47,634 lbs / 21,606 Kg = 23.3 x 16.0 " / 406 mm shells or 7.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.03
Metacentric height 5.9 ft / 1.8 m
Roll period: 18.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 57 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.82
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.13

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.631
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.31 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.10 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 37.50 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 23.60 ft / 7.19 m
- Forecastle (21 %): 21.90 ft / 6.68 m
- Mid (50 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Quarterdeck (21 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Stern: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Average freeboard: 21.46 ft / 6.54 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 97.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 155.1 %
Waterplane Area: 55,365 Square feet or 5,144 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 88 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 225 lbs/sq ft or 1,097 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.40
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Guns are actually 16"/50's with barrel liners to reduce diameter to 15". Gun weight is simmed as 16", shells are 15" weight.

Gah. Impressive beastie.

But how does it look if the shells are also 16"? I would not be surprised to see the hull strength drop.

A formidable ship. Whats the dispersion like on those secondaries? Are you buying them from Italy?

Cheers,

The WW USN is going to be better than it's counterpart in this universe.

The change in the gun bore is an interesting approach.

Why 15" guns? The US has a tradition of 12-14-16" main battery weapons and had the infrastructure in place to support them. If you opt for a 15" you are going to have to retool your munitions plants or purchase ammo from elsewhere.

Suppose you designed the turret to handle 16" but only mounted 14"? Then you would be consistent with the rest of the fleet and still have the upgrade potential.
(In this case the potential to change to a larger caliber might not be so obivious)

Quite interesting.

I do agree, tho, that with 16" shells you'll probably have to drop the number of shells to an unacceptable level. I would design the ship for (a minimum of) 100 16" shells, then switch to the 15" and leave the increased hull-strength as-is.

I presume the 6" mounts are modified Columbia-type turrets?

What I would do...is to go the historic way and use a quadruple 14'' gurret with a similar turret ring to that of a 3x16'' one.

That way the ship would have 16x14'' guns ( a superb main battery by any means), and would be able to accomodate a 12x16'' if the need arises...


but that's just me

that's a fairly light 15" shell, coming out of a 54 caliber gun. With that much muzzle velocity you will reach out 40,000 yards with ease, and it will penetrate most anybody's belt armor at any practical range. However, it will be a poor deck penetrator. And at long range, most hits will be against deck armor, not belts.

By the 30's, had the USN moved on towards a hull form more like the North Carolina instead of just using the old South Dakota hull?

I think the North Carolina design was done after when this ship would be laid down in 1931. That and the North Carolina was designed to 35,000 tons instead of 40,000 tons. I don't know when the United States decided to move towards fast battleships verse maintianing a more homogenous battleline.

Hull form through the early 1930's still followed the "Big Five" or South Dakota styles and speed was still 23-25 kts. The switch to the more modern style was in the mid 1930's when the North Carolina design process started. I'll consider the switch to quads, but there are some in Congress who are suffering from "barrel envy" prior to the upcoming election and want 15" guns. By adding about 7 inches to her draft (40,888 Std.) I can accommodate 100 rounds of 16 inch shells per gun. With 4 inches (40,497 Std.) I can accommodate 1920 lbs. 15" shells.

BigGun sim of 15"/54

Mk 7 Model 1931


Caliber = 15.0 inch (38.1 cm)
Shell weight = 1920 lbs (871 kg)
Muzzle velocity = 2833 fps (864 m/s)

Relative ballistic performance: 1.00

Muzzle energy = 324.9 megajoules = 119726.4 foot-tons

Relative muzzle energy: 1.11

Barrel length: 54 calibers


Elevation Range Time Velocity Fall Angle

2.5 deg 6500 yards 7.5 sec 2428 fps 2.8 deg
5.0 deg 11900 yards 14.6 sec 2148 fps 6.0 deg
7.5 deg 16500 yards 21.4 sec 1949 fps 9.6 deg
10.0 deg 20400 yards 27.9 sec 1807 fps 13.4 deg
12.5 deg 23900 yards 34.2 sec 1707 fps 17.4 deg
15.0 deg 27000 yards 40.2 sec 1638 fps 21.3 deg
20.0 deg 32400 yards 51.8 sec 1565 fps 28.9 deg
25.0 deg 37000 yards 62.9 sec 1550 fps 35.8 deg
30.0 deg 40700 yards 73.4 sec 1570 fps 41.7 deg
35.0 deg 43700 yards 83.5 sec 1608 fps 46.9 deg
40.0 deg 45800 yards 93.1 sec 1657 fps 51.4 deg
45.0 deg 46900 yards 102.2 sec 1709 fps 55.5 deg
50.0 deg 46800 yards 110.7 sec 1761 fps 59.3 deg


Armor Penetration - Vertical Belt Armor

(Relative armor quality, 1.00)

Maximum penetration: 32.75 inches


Elevation Range Belt Deck

1.8 deg 4900 yards 28 in
2.8 deg 7300 yards 26 in
3.3 deg 8400 yards ... 1 in
4.0 deg 9800 yards 24 in
5.3 deg 12600 yards 22 in
6.1 deg 14100 yards ... 2 in
7.0 deg 15700 yards 20 in
9.2 deg 19100 yards 18 in
9.3 deg 19300 yards ... 3 in
11.9 deg 23100 yards 16 in
13.3 deg 24900 yards ... 4 in
15.8 deg 27900 yards 14 in
18.0 deg 30400 yards ... 5 in
21.2 deg 33600 yards ... 6 in
21.5 deg 33800 yards 12 in
24.5 deg 36500 yards ... 7 in
27.8 deg 39200 yards ... 8 in
30.5 deg 41100 yards 10 in
31.2 deg 41500 yards ... 9 in
34.6 deg 43500 yards ... 10 in
38.2 deg 45100 yards ... 11 in
41.7 deg 46300 yards ... 12 in
43.9 deg 46700 yards 8 in
45.5 deg 46900 yards ... 13 in
49.3 deg 46900 yards ... 14 in


Maximum range = 47000 yards at 47.1 deg elevation

At least she'll be able to take the newer 16 inch guns (or shells anyway) after a minor refit to remove the liners and replace them with the proper liners.

However you'll have a lot of 15 inch shells left over after that refit. While the Americans be making the 15 inch shells, or purchase them abroad to fill the order for these two ships alone?

Shell production might be the thing that kills the 15" design. I've simmed a quad 14" version that can have the turrets replaced with 16" ones.

USS Georgia, United States Battleship laid down 1931

Displacement:
38,145 t light; 40,497 t standard; 41,636 t normal; 42,546 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
699.03 ft / 681.00 ft x 108.00 ft x 31.50 ft (normal load)
213.07 m / 207.57 m x 32.92 m x 9.60 m

Armament:
16 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (4x4 guns), 1,575.00lbs / 714.41kg shells, 1931 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (8x2 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1931 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1931 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 27,036 lbs / 12,263 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 424.00 ft / 129.24 m 12.47 ft / 3.80 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 96 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
3.00" / 76 mm 424.00 ft / 129.24 m 30.54 ft / 9.31 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 16.0" / 406 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 13.0" / 330 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm

- Armour deck: 6.00" / 152 mm, Conning tower: 13.00" / 330 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 81,083 shp / 60,488 Kw = 25.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,049 tons

Complement:
1,456 - 1,894

Cost:
£18.206 million / $72.825 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,974 tons, 7.1 %
Armour: 14,919 tons, 35.8 %
- Belts: 3,050 tons, 7.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,437 tons, 3.5 %
- Armament: 3,961 tons, 9.5 %
- Armour Deck: 6,134 tons, 14.7 %
- Conning Tower: 336 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 2,425 tons, 5.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 17,678 tons, 42.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,491 tons, 8.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 0.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
54,062 lbs / 24,522 Kg = 39.4 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 8.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 6.7 ft / 2.0 m
Roll period: 17.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.89
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.19

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.629
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.31 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.10 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 42
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 37.50 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 23.50 ft / 7.16 m
- Forecastle (21 %): 22.50 ft / 6.86 m
- Mid (50 %): 21.50 ft / 6.55 m
- Quarterdeck (21 %): 21.50 ft / 6.55 m
- Stern: 21.50 ft / 6.55 m
- Average freeboard: 21.94 ft / 6.69 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 90.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 157.3 %
Waterplane Area: 55,263 Square feet or 5,134 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 95 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 236 lbs/sq ft or 1,152 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.60
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

16" Version
USS Georgia, United States Battleship laid down 1931

Displacement:
38,782 t light; 41,148 t standard; 42,296 t normal; 43,215 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
698.65 ft / 681.00 ft x 108.00 ft x 32.00 ft (normal load)
212.95 m / 207.57 m x 32.92 m x 9.75 m

Armament:
12 - 16.00" / 406 mm guns (4x3 guns), 2,100.00lbs / 952.54kg shells, 1931 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (8x2 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1931 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1931 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 27,036 lbs / 12,263 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 424.00 ft / 129.24 m 12.47 ft / 3.80 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 96 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
3.00" / 76 mm 424.00 ft / 129.24 m 30.54 ft / 9.31 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 16.0" / 406 mm 7.00" / 178 mm 13.0" / 330 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 2.00" / 51 mm

- Armour deck: 6.00" / 152 mm, Conning tower: 13.00" / 330 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 4 shafts, 81,794 shp / 61,018 Kw = 25.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 2,067 tons

Complement:
1,474 - 1,917

Cost:
£19.519 million / $78.076 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 3,302 tons, 7.8 %
Armour: 15,240 tons, 36.0 %
- Belts: 3,050 tons, 7.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,437 tons, 3.4 %
- Armament: 4,279 tons, 10.1 %
- Armour Deck: 6,134 tons, 14.5 %
- Conning Tower: 340 tons, 0.8 %
Machinery: 2,446 tons, 5.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 17,645 tons, 41.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,514 tons, 8.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 0.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
49,981 lbs / 22,671 Kg = 24.4 x 16.0 " / 406 mm shells or 8.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.06
Metacentric height 6.3 ft / 1.9 m
Roll period: 18.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.89
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.14

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.629
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.31 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.10 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 44
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 37.50 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Forecastle (21 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Mid (50 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Quarterdeck (21 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Stern: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Average freeboard: 21.44 ft / 6.53 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 95.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 151.8 %
Waterplane Area: 55,263 Square feet or 5,134 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 91 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 236 lbs/sq ft or 1,150 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.51
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

It won't please the "barrel envy" club, but it would give you a ship nearly as powerful as the Italian 16 gun monster.

Either that or the isolationists win the next election and decide to break with the treaty and go for the 16 inch to counter "them foreigners".

Would the Americans - always laying emphasis on battle damage resistance - install her secondary guns that close together? One shell or bomb may wreck the whole battery of one side...

Well, if that were the case, consider it to be a design flaw. Might result in a few more designers being sent to (as you suggested before) Alaska to count the snowflakes.
:-)

Quoted

Originally posted by HoOmAn
Would the Americans - always laying emphasis on battle damage resistance - install her secondary guns that close together? One shell or bomb may wreck the whole battery of one side...

what I find odd is the main belt arrangement. It extends beyond the barbette of turret A forward, but over the aft turret it does not cover it fully...I'm not sure about the aft magazine too, it can be covered or not...

SS report says it's well covered, but in the drawing I'd say that belt should be displaced back so it covers all turrets and magazines...

That is how it appears to be. Those are actually black lines drawn on the hull to fool the enemy.
:-)

Drawing error on the belt...I'll fix it today. I'm not entirely thrilled with the secondary arrangement either. One option would be to drop them all to the main deck and spread them out like the refits of the old BB's during the war. I might also go with a new design of turret, possibly even 5" guns. The 5"/38 entered service about the time the Georgia would be completed, perhaps they can make their debut here. The famous twin mount would be a few years off historically, but the new BB could provide the inspiration to develop it early.

The Somers & Porter class destroyers (leaders) of the time had twin 5"/38 mounts at this time - although not the same as the WW-2 era twin mounts
They would give the ships a look of the time and the mounts were visually different from the later DP installations
(I believe they were not DP mounts, as Friedman notes that they needed to be replaced)

You're correct, John. The Porters and Sommers had 5"/38 SP guns. See

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_5-38_mk12.htm

specifically, Note 6 under Ammunition.

CanisD, nice work. She's a beauty. I think I like the 14" with 16" upgun over the 15" sleeved version.

As Bob H. pointed out over on the Warship Discussion board, I'd be concerned with barrel droop and accuracy. Beside, can't the army use some nice 16" triple turrets for fortifications?

Regards,

Big Rich