WesWorld

A potental replacement design for the currently in service Chilean Dreadnoughts. If two are built, the second might enter service before the ships they replace turn 30 year old. Any thoughts? Yes I know if can't go through the Panama Canal, but there is a new canal under construction. Also, aside from the guns size, this ship would be legel under the current Treaty, right? (5% over on light is acceptible in some cases?)

Valparaiso
Talcahuano

Chilean Battleship laid down 1938

Displacement:
40,449 t light; 42,795 t standard; 45,000 t normal; 46,584 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
721.00 ft / 721.00 ft x 115.00 ft x 30.00 ft (normal load)
219.76 m / 219.76 m x 35.05 m x 9.14 m

Armament:
6 - 17.01" / 432 mm guns (2x3 guns), 2,459.92lbs / 1,115.80kg shells, 1938 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
2 - 17.01" / 432 mm guns (1x2 guns), 2,459.92lbs / 1,115.80kg shells, 1938 Model
Breech loading guns in a turret (on a barbette)
on centreline aft
16 - 4.33" / 110 mm guns (8x2 guns), 40.61lbs / 18.42kg shells, 1938 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
20 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (10x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1938 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
24 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns (12x2 guns), 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1938 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 20,362 lbs / 9,236 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 125

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 15.5" / 394 mm 375.00 ft / 114.30 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Ends: 5.50" / 140 mm 346.00 ft / 105.46 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Upper: 5.50" / 140 mm 375.00 ft / 114.30 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 80 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.75" / 44 mm 375.00 ft / 114.30 m 26.00 ft / 7.92 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15.5" / 394 mm 11.3" / 286 mm 15.0" / 381 mm
2nd: 15.5" / 394 mm 11.3" / 286 mm 15.0" / 381 mm
3rd: 4.00" / 102 mm - -
4th: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
5th: 0.50" / 13 mm - -

- Armour deck: 5.50" / 140 mm, Conning tower: 15.50" / 394 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 112,000 shp / 83,552 Kw = 26.88 kts
Range 7,000nm at 15.00 kts (Bunkerage = 3,969 tons)

Complement:
1,544 - 2,008

Cost:
£22.450 million / $89.799 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,545 tons, 5.7 %
Armour: 15,583 tons, 34.6 %
- Belts: 4,169 tons, 9.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 631 tons, 1.4 %
- Armament: 4,100 tons, 9.1 %
- Armour Deck: 6,258 tons, 13.9 %
- Conning Tower: 425 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 3,067 tons, 6.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 19,179 tons, 42.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,551 tons, 10.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 75 tons, 0.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
55,291 lbs / 25,080 Kg = 22.5 x 17.0 " / 432 mm shells or 8.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.04
Metacentric height 6.7 ft / 2.0 m
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.69
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.16

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.633
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.27 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.85 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 60
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 32.00 ft / 9.75 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Mid (50 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Stern: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Average freeboard: 24.21 ft / 7.38 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 79.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 179.5 %
Waterplane Area: 61,505 Square feet or 5,714 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 231 lbs/sq ft or 1,130 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.63
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Quoted

Also, aside from the guns size, this ship would be legel under the current Treaty, right? (5% over on light is acceptible in some cases?)

Which cases?

Lexington?

Or is that standard displacement instead of light?

(In truth it doesn't matter if it is treaty legal in weight, as it isn't in cannon).

Satndard, so you is a little over!!

Eh...7% over. For some reason I get the feeling she'll be small compared to what will be in the sea by the time the first one is finished.....might even have smaller guns then what is on the "new" post-treaty ships. (assuming the treaty fails or is allowed to expire sometime after 1936).

I'm not sure if it would fit through the canal - but does that matter to Chile?

Do you need the end and upper belts?

Of course I could go for the maximum battleship the largest drydock in Chile can hold historically.....(19% over treaty tonnage limit, 9 x 17 inch guns).

Valparaiso

Chilean Battleship laid down 1938

Displacement:
45,000 t light; 47,627 t standard; 49,994 t normal; 51,687 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
800.00 ft / 800.00 ft x 116.00 ft x 30.00 ft (normal load)
243.84 m / 243.84 m x 35.36 m x 9.14 m

Armament:
6 - 17.01" / 432 mm guns (2x3 guns), 2,459.92lbs / 1,115.80kg shells, 1938 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
3 - 17.01" / 432 mm guns (1x3 guns), 2,459.92lbs / 1,115.80kg shells, 1938 Model
Breech loading guns in a turret (on a barbette)
on centreline aft
16 - 4.33" / 110 mm guns (8x2 guns), 40.61lbs / 18.42kg shells, 1938 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
20 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (10x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1938 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
24 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns (12x2 guns), 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1938 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 22,821 lbs / 10,352 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 125

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 15.5" / 394 mm 430.00 ft / 131.06 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Ends: 5.50" / 140 mm 370.00 ft / 112.78 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Upper: 5.50" / 140 mm 430.00 ft / 131.06 m 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 83 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.75" / 44 mm 430.00 ft / 131.06 m 26.00 ft / 7.92 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15.5" / 394 mm 11.3" / 286 mm 15.0" / 381 mm
2nd: 15.5" / 394 mm 11.3" / 286 mm 15.0" / 381 mm
3rd: 4.00" / 102 mm - -
4th: 0.50" / 13 mm - -
5th: 0.50" / 13 mm - -

- Armour deck: 5.50" / 140 mm, Conning tower: 15.50" / 394 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 114,988 shp / 85,781 Kw = 26.94 kts
Range 7,000nm at 15.00 kts (Bunkerage = 4,260 tons)

Complement:
1,671 - 2,173

Cost:
£24.868 million / $99.472 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,853 tons, 5.7 %
Armour: 16,919 tons, 33.8 %
- Belts: 4,634 tons, 9.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 724 tons, 1.4 %
- Armament: 4,137 tons, 8.3 %
- Armour Deck: 6,969 tons, 13.9 %
- Conning Tower: 456 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 3,149 tons, 6.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 22,005 tons, 44.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,994 tons, 10.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 75 tons, 0.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
61,795 lbs / 28,030 Kg = 25.1 x 17.0 " / 432 mm shells or 9.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
Metacentric height 7.3 ft / 2.2 m
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.64
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.629
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.90 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 28.28 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 31.00 ft / 9.45 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 25.00 ft / 7.62 m
- Mid (50 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Stern: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Average freeboard: 22.88 ft / 6.97 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 78.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 171.2 %
Waterplane Area: 68,491 Square feet or 6,363 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 241 lbs/sq ft or 1,178 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.00
- Longitudinal: 1.32
- Overall: 1.03
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

The canal shouldn't matter too much to Chile, as they have easy access to the original route around the Americas.

As to the upper and end belts...I don't know. Earlier suggestions would be that the ends are unprotected and vulerable to any fire (though I'd assume SS would be smart enough to have a 15.5 inch plate like the belt at the end of the citidel instead of being open to end on fire...but I could be way off there). If the AON design would work better (how tall does the main belt need to be for this to work properly?) then the upper belt is not needed and the ends go relatively unprotected, or are armored against cruiser and destroyer fire, but thin enough to act as "nothing" to a battleship shell so it would pass though both sides before exploding....or at least that seems to be the primary theory.

How was South Dakota Armored?

U.S. 1930s battleships were AoN, IIRC.

The turret arrangement (on the original, 'small' design) is A-3, B-3s, X-2? I would have it A-3, B-2s, X-3, as that way there's an extra gun aft and less weight superfiring.

Well originally is was going to be A = 3, B = 2 and X = 3, but for some reason I was thinking of forward arc 6 guns salvos and came up with this to see how it would work. For the 9 guns version I would either need to redeclare the original Type 3 drydock size (800 x 116 feet) or upgrade one slip or dock to Type 4 specifications during the next 10 sim years.

To sim an American All or Nothing ship; Set the belt length at 100% of normal coverage. This gives the ship a raft body of about 66%. This incorporates enough armoured buoyancy without armouring the ends. The height of the belt armour, longer is better. SoDak's main belt 310mm thick was 12ft high with a tapering section underneath this that extended to the bottom of the hull thinning to 40mm. An upper belt depends on how your deck armour is arranged, whether there is a burster deck or not. Normally a burster deck lies on top of the upper belt. The main deck armour lies on top of the main belt armour.

I expect Stephan could provide details of Bismarck's armourscheme for a different view.

if I take it right, the main battery distribution would be 3x3 in the last ship, following the "usual" distribution of 2 turrets fore (one superfiring), one aft

Then why simming it into separate SS batteries?. I can understand it in the first ship (because the superfiring is a twin), but it's useless for the second...

Quoted

Then why simming it into separate SS batteries?.... but it's useless for the second...

It was quicker....easier...more seductive.

Valparaiso
Talcahuano

Chilean Battleship laid down 1938

Displacement:
43,043 t light; 45,941 t standard; 48,250 t normal; 49,904 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
810.00 ft / 795.00 ft x 112.00 ft x 30.00 ft (normal load)
246.89 m / 242.32 m x 34.14 m x 9.14 m

Armament:
9 - 17.01" / 432 mm guns (3x3 guns), 2,459.92lbs / 1,115.80kg shells, 1938 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
20 - 4.33" / 110 mm guns (10x2 guns), 40.61lbs / 18.42kg shells, 1938 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
20 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (10x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1938 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
24 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns (12x2 guns), 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1938 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 22,984 lbs / 10,425 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 15.5" / 394 mm 430.00 ft / 131.06 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: 5.50" / 140 mm 365.00 ft / 111.25 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Main Belt covers 83 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 430.00 ft / 131.06 m 26.00 ft / 7.92 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15.5" / 394 mm 11.3" / 286 mm 15.0" / 381 mm
2nd: 4.00" / 102 mm 2.00" / 51 mm 3.00" / 76 mm
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -
4th: 0.50" / 13 mm - -

- Armour deck: 5.50" / 140 mm, Conning tower: 15.50" / 394 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 4 shafts, 115,000 shp / 85,790 Kw = 27.10 kts
Range 7,000nm at 15.00 kts (Bunkerage = 4,156 tons)

Complement:
1,627 - 2,116

Cost:
£24.578 million / $98.313 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,873 tons, 6.0 %
Armour: 16,842 tons, 34.9 %
- Belts: 4,499 tons, 9.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 827 tons, 1.7 %
- Armament: 4,358 tons, 9.0 %
- Armour Deck: 6,713 tons, 13.9 %
- Conning Tower: 445 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 3,149 tons, 6.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 20,029 tons, 41.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,207 tons, 10.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 0.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
56,938 lbs / 25,826 Kg = 23.1 x 17.0 " / 432 mm shells or 8.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.06
Metacentric height 6.6 ft / 2.0 m
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.79
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.632
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.10 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 28.20 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.12 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 32.00 ft / 9.75 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 26.00 ft / 7.92 m
- Mid (50 %): 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Stern: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Average freeboard: 23.88 ft / 7.28 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 82.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 178.8 %
Waterplane Area: 65,979 Square feet or 6,130 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 223 lbs/sq ft or 1,091 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.20
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Hummm if the nature of the Chilean warships is to fight it out against enemies in their own coastal (and so restricted) waters, I think the DP secondary battery is a tad on the light side. 110mm guns won't be enough to stop determined destroyer attacks on those ships...I'd rather put 16x5'' than 20x4.33'' DP guns on them.

Other than that they seem quite nice ships for their displacement

That or 5.9 inch I would think. Its a good ten years or so before this ship even has a hope of being laid down, so plenty of time to ajustements to the changing situation.

IMHO the guns should be rounded to either 430mm or 17", not 17.01"/432mm.

Hmmm, hadn't noted that. When I did it the first time I did it as 17 inch and it rounded it off as 432mm, but I guess I redid it as 432mm and it came out as 17.01" (because 17 inch is actually 431.8mm)...432 has that nice numeric progression thing going for it. and I didn't want 43cm cannon but 17 inch. Its a minor correction.

My question is why wouldn't Chile go with a design with more guns of smaller caliber? Why not 9x16" or 12x14"?
For this ships displacement I can get a 12x15" gunned design with better armor, similar speed and slightly less weight of broadside for 30 million cheaper per hull, thats half the cost of another ship.

For the same reason that, historically, the ABC nations engaged in naval races they really couldn't afford: National Pride.

(a/k/a, "mine's bigger than yours!")