Design philosophy

Keeper of the Sacred Block Coefficient

Monday, June 30th 2003, 3:15pm

Folks,

when designing your own ships, do you simply follow your own design-philosophy? Do you even have an own design-philosophy? Or are you heavily influenced by what your neighbors build?

The SAE doesn´t have to fear an equally strong neighbor so I face the luxury to be able to build up my fleet more or less to my own philosophy but a power like Italy, France, Atlantis or Northmark surely have to take care of what the others around them build and thus are not as free as I am.

That´s why I´m curious....

HoOmAn

Go to the top of the page

The Rock Doctor

Old-School Heel

Posts: 5,310

2

Monday, June 30th 2003, 4:14pm

India...

India's philosophies theoretically reflect the fact that her navy is quite limited and quite new, and happens to have several larger navies - Australia, France/Russia, Britain, Netherlands, South Africa, maybe Italy - as neighbours.

Being a new navy, from a "role-playing" perspective, it's important to recognize that not everything she produces will be shining example of their type. Some tonnage will be lost to mediocre designs. I feel it necessary to see those designs through. An example would be the Hyderabad cruisers. I like them, but they're technically obsolete with the advent of faster cruisers with up to quadruple 8.2" turrets.

It also means that India's first capital ship will not be a 40,000 t behemoth, even though it has implications for the rest of her modest capital ship allotment.

Being a small navy, there is a conflict between the urge to maximize hulls and the urge to maximize the abilities of each unit. These usually aren't compatible. In these cases, it's a matter of comprosing on something that is "good enough".

Having larger navies as neighbours has influenced India's diplomatic efforts. With India, I find the Netherlands, Australia, and Britain to be the three most significant neighbours to keep an eye on. My designs need to be able to hold their own against ships from these nations - though for the sake of realism, sometimes they don't. Russia/France is important, but I suspect hostilities between India and that alliance would primarily lead to a land war.

With a large area to defend against large neighbours, and a small navy to do it with, I'm mindful of the need to avoid defeat in detail. I'm looking at ways in which I can concentrate my forces in central waters and maintain picket forces on the frontiers as "tripwires".

J

Go to the top of the page

The Rock Doctor

Old-School Heel

Posts: 5,310

3

Monday, June 30th 2003, 4:22pm

...Germany

I haven't got a clear picture of how to deal with Germany. She has a lot of restrictions, more so than other nations - maximum guns are 12", maximum capital ships are about 25 kt, no submarines to name three.

Germany's lighter units are restricted by hulls and individual tonnage, but not an overall tonnage; so the logical thing to do is build those ships to the largest size allowed right away - barring one or two transitional units.

Germany's heavier units are not going to be an issue for several years since the pre-1911 rule doesn't apply to her. I have time to decide what mix of conventional heavy cruisers, armored ships, and battlecruisers to assemble in the thirties. A high quality 12" gun - something Germany's munitions sector could be expected to develop - could help offset the advantage of the 15" guns everybody else can operate.

Politics will be a major factor here - Germany will not be in a position to fight any of her neighbours one-on-one. The navy is likely to take on a defensive role...though I stress "likely" here.

J

Go to the top of the page

Red Admiral

Italian Stallion

Posts: 7,019

4

Monday, June 30th 2003, 4:51pm

Italy doesn't really need to respond to others designs. Greece could be crushed with comparitive ease so i don't have to respond to them in a big way. Although smaller vessels such as CLs and DDs may be influenced.
I am allowed 3 more capital ships than France so in a fleet battle i should be able to beat them. France's capital ships are fairly old but so are mine at the moment.
Iberia has other commitments and isn't much of a problem anyway....
Russia is miles away but within sailing distance. I can't match their ships so airpower from carriers and land would have to even things out.
Italy would outnumber the british Med. fleet but they can be reinforced from Gib and strike me hard.

Hindsight is an awfull thing. HMS Nelson does 23knts but was proved to be somewhat useless in WW2. This means that i want a design as fast as possible with good armour and firepower. This is only possible if i build right up to the Treaty limit of 40,000t. Current designs are for a ship of 38,000t with unparalleled speed (circa 27knts) for a battleship and with the best armour afloat. Coupled with an impressive main battery.

my design philosophy would be; stick as much armour on the brute as possible for 40,000t. This has abated somewhat resulting in a more balanced vessel.

Go to the top of the page

HoOmAn

Keeper of the Sacred Block Coefficient

Posts: 7,417

5

Monday, June 30th 2003, 5:23pm

Hmmmm....

I always thought as Italy it would be very difficult to find the right design. Sitting right in the middle of them all, you surely have to take care your designs reflect the real needs of your navy. You have to make sure you can fight on several borders simultaniously, though. So going for the biggest single hull might not be that good an idea - just my thoughts of course.

How do you deal with France and Greece attacking you simultaniously? Will you have enough hulls to defend the sealines to all your islands and oversea territories?

Wouldn´t it have some influence on your designs if France (for example) builds especially fast units? Sure, they´ll most likely can´t slug it out with your full-size heavily armored units but what if they´re too fast to catch? Will you be able to deal with them? What if they use hit and run tactics to get your merchantmen? You surely will not have enough big, heavily armored capital units or cruisers of category A to protect your smaller military units or all those non-combatants.....

Isn´t focusing on few big and heavily armored units totally wrong for Italy? With more smaller units you could at least cover a greater area, right?

Just my thoughts...

HoOmAn

Go to the top of the page

thesmilingassassin

The Chosen One

Posts: 13,513

6

Monday, June 30th 2003, 7:49pm

well

HMS Nelson wasn't totally useless, just ask the DKM Bismarck about how useless Nelson's sister Rodney was. Rodney was the redheaded stepchild in the Nelson class and she was allowed to delapitate to a dismal material state which ironically enough led to her being where she was at the time Bismarck sortied, she was on her way to an American shipyard for a refit. Just because your ships are slow it doesn't mean you can't use them in conjunction with other naval assets like carriers. The HMS Queen Elizebeth, Valiant and Warspite were only capable of 24 knots and they quite often detered the Italian fleet (see matapan and battle of point stilo/Calabria).
As for the design philosophy of Atlantis its a fairly balanced one. Size counts, but not always. Atlantis has short sealanes between the mainland and its territory's but the Atlantic itself is a large ocean so the number of ships in the fleet must be equal to the task. Atlantis is fairly confident in its capital ship department but is woefully low on heavy cruisers and those that are in service are quickly becoming obsolete. Older ships will not nessasarily be scrapped but relegated to second line duties such as convoy escort.
When looking at its nabours Atlantis feels fairly confedent that it can protect its sealanes but never the less still watches its nabours designs closely and a two nation alliance has to be taken into account when planning the fleet disposition. Basically Atlantis balances size and number of hulls while trying to get the best armor, speed and guns into a design.

Go to the top of the page

Red Admiral

Italian Stallion

Posts: 7,019

7

Monday, June 30th 2003, 10:29pm

HMS Rodney was useless when Scharnhorst and Gneisenau got clean away. Older ships may be a deterrent but in a fight would not perform as well. Then again they can still hurt any BB.

For capital ships i have; 280,000t but 9 hulls i can use.
2xFrancesco Caracciolo=64,000t
Then i can build 2x38,000t vessels.
I can build 3x40,000t vessels.

This leaves me with 20,000t so i can build my BBL

That gives me 8 vessels to defend my coast with. All capable. I could build 2 10,000t monitors instead of my BBL but they would not be as effective.

Type A cruisers.

Go to the top of the page

The Rock Doctor

Old-School Heel

Posts: 5,310

8

Monday, June 30th 2003, 10:57pm

As I recall, Rodney wasn't supposed to be chasing German battlecruisers but rather keeping them away from a convoy. With that in mind, I'd say she did a perfectly adequate job.

Go to the top of the page

HoOmAn

Keeper of the Sacred Block Coefficient

Posts: 7,417

9

Monday, June 30th 2003, 11:45pm

That´s true.

It all depends on what you´re trying to achieve. If you need ships for some kind of agressive politics, then you need fast and powerful units so you can strike where it hurts the enemy. On the other hand, if you´re planing to be defensive, you better go with more hulls, still heavily armed and armored but lacking in speed and maybe even range.

Just my thoughts...

Go to the top of the page

thesmilingassassin

The Chosen One

Posts: 13,513

10

Tuesday, July 1st 2003, 1:00am

Re:thats true

When it comes to Atlantis I seem to have all the bases reasonably covered. Melampus and Theseus are the flagships and most formidable ships of the fleet, while the Vengeance and Glory are the fast capital ships able to counter raiders and in turn be raiders themselves. When carrier come into its own they can then be used as fast carrier escorts. The Heracles class BB's will be the backbone of the fleet and will be of some use for years to come while the Atlas/Poseiden class BB's will also be the backbone of the fleet but will eventually be replaced by newer ships.
In the case of Rodney not being able to catch Bismarck on her own would have made her useless, but that fatefull torpedo that Bismarck took negated that problem thanks to the Ark Royal. Other than here steering Bismarck was still very much still in the fight allthough she couldn't manover well enough to take on the Rodney and KGV. Still had it only been the Rodney encountered by the Bismarck she still would have had a very rough time against a ship nearly 20 years older than her simply because of the armor and guns of Rodney. All you need to do is use all your fleet assets wisely. Slow and steady acctually does win the race...sometimes.

Go to the top of the page

HoOmAn

Keeper of the Sacred Block Coefficient

Posts: 7,417

11

Tuesday, July 1st 2003, 2:36am

True

Historically the french Dunkerques were build to counter the german Deutschlands while the italian VVs were build to counter the Dunkerques and whatever would follow them.

These are just the most obvious examples of european design history where foreign designs influenced a certain countries own designs. And all this under the light of some treaties that came into effect.

So I hardly believe if one says foreign designs don´t have any influence on his own design - or he will be caught by surprise one day and find himself in a position where adequate material is lacking.

This is also true for the SAE even though I said foreign influence is somewhat marginal because I don´t have a possibly hostile neighbor sitting next to me. In fact, I closely examine all designs I can lay my hands on - especially of those of Atlantis, Japan and Australia. Only India is not really a thread due to several and obvious reasons. Here it is just personal interest that makes me curious.

Most likely two of the named three will not be an issue one fine day but I better be prepared. :o) Both from a role-playing point of view and from a point of view dedicated to realismn. I could build my RSAN just following my _personal_ interests and because this or that design looks cool or great but this would set aside realism and so I have to watch closely what my neighbors are building and examine how I could react to it. Should I build fast units for hit and run tactics? Will I be agressive one fine day? Are carriers that interesting to - I have several islands along my shipping routes after all? Due to the same reason - do I really need floatplanes aboard my ships or do they only eat up tonnage and deckspace? Can I affort to build single-purpose vessels? So far I prefered smaller calibers in favour of speed and armor - should I continue with this philosophy? How could I deal with those atlantian fast capitals if they start raiding my merchantmen in a worst case scenario? What about those new IJN BBs? Are they a thread to my battleline? Australias navy is somewhat smaller than my own but if 17inc dicides to concentrate his QEs and Hoods - all armed with 15" guns leaving me in disadvantage - against my territories? What about piracy and smuggel?

I really think there are many, many variables that influence ones designs. And costs - both material, men and money - haven´t been mentioned yet.....

Go to the top of the page

17inc

Unregistered

12

Tuesday, July 1st 2003, 7:13am

I do not have Any Hoods? and just one Queen

I have just one Queen no hoods and 3 13.5" guns ships in the fleet at the moment and my frist 40,000 ton BB will not be water till some time in 1933 and most blokes will still be on BB Hollday by the time all 5 Neslons have been built . And most of the ships will date form at least the start of the treaty and yes my ships are fraster then ones built by the brits but then there would be fraster two in the ALt. All the ships i build will have this 15" MK16 as the main wepon

MK16

Caliber = 15.0 inch (38.1 cm)
Shell weight = 2300 lbs (1044 kg)
Muzzle velocity = 2652 fps (808 m/s)

Relative ballistic performance: 1.00

Muzzle energy = 341.0 megajoules = 125673.5 foot-tons

Relative muzzle energy: 1.16

Barrel length: 56 calibers

Elevation Range Time Velocity Fall Angle

2.5 deg 5900 yards 7.1 sec 2361 fps 2.7 deg
5.0 deg 10900 yards 13.9 sec 2143 fps 5.8 deg
7.5 deg 15400 yards 20.4 sec 1980 fps 9.1 deg
10.0 deg 19300 yards 26.7 sec 1858 fps 12.6 deg
12.5 deg 22800 yards 32.8 sec 1767 fps 16.3 deg
15.0 deg 25900 yards 38.8 sec 1702 fps 20.0 deg
20.0 deg 31400 yards 50.2 sec 1629 fps 27.2 deg
25.0 deg 36000 yards 61.0 sec 1609 fps 33.8 deg
30.0 deg 39800 yards 71.4 sec 1621 fps 39.7 deg
35.0 deg 42700 yards 81.3 sec 1654 fps 45.0 deg
40.0 deg 44700 yards 90.7 sec 1696 fps 49.6 deg
45.0 deg 45600 yards 99.5 sec 1743 fps 53.9 deg
50.0 deg 45400 yards 107.8 sec 1789 fps 57.9 deg

Armor Penetration - Belt Inclined 15 degrees

(Relative armor quality, 1.00)

Maximum penetration: 32.30 inches

Elevation Range Belt Deck

1.0 deg 2500 yards 30 in
2.0 deg 4800 yards 28 in
3.1 deg 7200 yards ... 1 in
3.2 deg 7300 yards 26 in
4.5 deg 9900 yards 24 in
5.7 deg 12300 yards ... 2 in
6.0 deg 12700 yards 22 in
7.7 deg 15800 yards 20 in
8.5 deg 16900 yards ... 3 in
9.9 deg 19100 yards 18 in
11.6 deg 21600 yards ... 4 in
12.5 deg 22700 yards 16 in
15.5 deg 26500 yards ... 5 in
15.7 deg 26700 yards 14 in
19.4 deg 30800 yards ... 6 in
19.7 deg 31100 yards 12 in
22.3 deg 33600 yards ... 7 in
24.9 deg 35900 yards 10 in
25.2 deg 36200 yards ... 8 in
28.1 deg 38400 yards ... 9 in
31.1 deg 40400 yards ... 10 in
31.7 deg 40800 yards 8 in
34.1 deg 42200 yards ... 11 in
37.1 deg 43600 yards ... 12 in
40.2 deg 44700 yards 6 in 13 in
43.3 deg 45400 yards ... 14 in
46.7 deg 45700 yards ... 15 in
49.9 deg 45400 yards ... 16 in

Maximum range = 45700 yards at 46.7 deg elevation

Go to the top of the page

Red Admiral

Italian Stallion

Posts: 7,019

13

Tuesday, July 1st 2003, 11:05am

As long as the opposing ship has 5" deck armour they are fairly safe.

Your shell is also a 'super-super-heavy'. Its not really practical especially when fired from a 56 calibre gun. The recoil, barrel wear and stress on the mount would create many problems for your ships.

A gun that can penetrate 16" of side armour @ 15,000yds would be the best.

Go to the top of the page

17inc

Unregistered

14

Tuesday, July 1st 2003, 11:47am

I donot Know Red Admiral at 12.5 dge at 22700 i can penetrate 16" of

I do not know Red Admiral at 12.5 dge at 22700 yrads i can penetrate 16" of side armour . But ok for you RA hears the 15" MK 11 gun the shell is the the same as in the MK 12

MK11

Caliber = 15.0 inch (38.1 cm)
Shell weight = 2300 lbs (1044 kg)
Muzzle velocity = 2459 fps (750 m/s)

Relative ballistic performance: 1.00

Muzzle energy = 293.2 megajoules = 108052.8 foot-tons

Relative muzzle energy: 1.00

Barrel length: 50 calibers

Elevation Range Time Velocity Fall Angle

2.5 deg 5100 yards 6.6 sec 2222 fps 2.7 deg
5.0 deg 9600 yards 12.9 sec 2041 fps 5.7 deg
7.5 deg 13500 yards 19.1 sec 1898 fps 9.0 deg
10.0 deg 17100 yards 25.0 sec 1790 fps 12.4 deg
12.5 deg 20200 yards 30.8 sec 1708 fps 15.9 deg
15.0 deg 23100 yards 36.4 sec 1647 fps 19.5 deg
20.0 deg 28100 yards 47.1 sec 1576 fps 26.5 deg
25.0 deg 32200 yards 57.4 sec 1552 fps 33.1 deg
30.0 deg 35500 yards 67.2 sec 1559 fps 39.1 deg
35.0 deg 38100 yards 76.5 sec 1585 fps 44.4 deg
40.0 deg 39800 yards 85.3 sec 1621 fps 49.2 deg
45.0 deg 40500 yards 93.5 sec 1660 fps 53.6 deg
50.0 deg 40200 yards 101.2 sec 1701 fps 57.7 deg

Armor Penetration - Belt Inclined 15 degrees

(Relative armor quality, 1.00)

Maximum penetration: 29.20 inches

Elevation Range Belt Deck

1.9 deg 3900 yards 26 in
3.3 deg 6500 yards 24 in
3.4 deg 6800 yards ... 1 in
4.8 deg 9300 yards 22 in
6.2 deg 11600 yards ... 2 in
6.7 deg 12300 yards 20 in
8.9 deg 15500 yards 18 in
9.2 deg 15900 yards ... 3 in
11.5 deg 19000 yards 16 in
12.6 deg 20400 yards ... 4 in
14.8 deg 22900 yards 14 in
17.1 deg 25300 yards ... 5 in
18.8 deg 27000 yards 12 in
20.8 deg 28800 yards ... 6 in
23.9 deg 31400 yards ... 7 in
24.1 deg 31500 yards 10 in
26.9 deg 33600 yards ... 8 in
30.1 deg 35600 yards ... 9 in
30.7 deg 36000 yards 8 in
33.2 deg 37300 yards ... 10 in
36.4 deg 38700 yards ... 11 in
39.1 deg 39500 yards 6 in
39.8 deg 39700 yards ... 12 in
43.1 deg 40300 yards ... 13 in
46.5 deg 40500 yards ... 14 in

Maximum range = 40500 yards at 46.1 deg elevation

Go to the top of the page

Red Admiral

Italian Stallion

Posts: 7,019

15

Tuesday, July 1st 2003, 2:30pm

17inc, at 22700yds your gun might be able to penetrate that much armour. However at 22700yds it will not hit the belt armour, instead impacting upon the deck. Hence with 5" deck armour a ship should be immune to deck penetrations given that hits at ranges over 26,000yds are unlikely.

At 15,000yds projectiles start hitting the belt armour. With high velocity weapons the range is further because of the flatter trajectory. However matching a 60cal gun to a 2300lb shell gives a lot of stress in the mounts.

Go to the top of the page

HoOmAn

Keeper of the Sacred Block Coefficient

Posts: 7,417

16

Tuesday, July 1st 2003, 3:48pm

Several notes

Folks,

the original question had little to do with discussing realism of particular guns so if you want to discuss this at length, why not open an new thread especially on guns?
And a 2300lb shell really is a little bit heavy for a 15" gun. I doubt a super-heavy 15" shell will weight more than ~2000lb but by 1921 nobody will even think of super-heavy shells, though.

Further more, I was wrong on the Hoods, sorry 17inc. I fogot you changed that into some 15" Nelsons. It doesn´t change much because you´ll still have enough 15" armed vessel to cause havoc once you concentrate on one target. Thus I watch you closely, old chap! :o)

Go to the top of the page

Pengolodh_sc

Intermediate

Posts: 273

17

Tuesday, July 1st 2003, 5:49pm

A 15inch shell which is superheavy to the standard of the US 16inch 2700lbs shells, will come in at ca. 2224lbs. The 15inch equivalent of the US 16inch 2240lbs shell would be ca. 1846lbs.

Go to the top of the page

harry the red

Unregistered

18

Thursday, July 3rd 2003, 4:31pm

red admiral is dreaming!

Quoted

Originally posted by Red Admiral
Italy doesn't really need to respond to others designs. Greece could be crushed with comparitive ease so i don't have to respond to them in a big way.

Famous last words or what! Ha, the red admiral is dreaming!

Can’t help but wonder to my self if you are one of Mussolini’s descendents, you seem to have the same ability to underestimate your opponent. The question you should be asking your self at this moment is if Germany will bail Italy out in this alternative world?

Good luck

I would also like to add that a single Salamis class is easily capable of despatching your future MM Taranto class armoured cruiser to a watery grave.

harry

Wink wink say no more.

By the way no prizes for guessing what nation influences Greece’s design philosophy

Go to the top of the page

thesmilingassassin

The Chosen One

Posts: 13,513

19

Thursday, July 3rd 2003, 11:00pm

Woooh!

Is minister talknotalotaboutapoles banging his shoe yet? lol. I think we had all better be wise and wary in the way we view other nations, for we may not know what alliances may be formed in the future! Atlantis has only a few nations to worry about but even then the lesser nations cannot be under estimated for if they ally with a larger nation such as say the SAE then that could pose a problem especially if they get bold and try and force a fight hoping to bring their larger allie into the war with them.
Dealing with the original question which type of gun is better in your view, a deck penetrater or a belt penetrater? I would guess it all depends on what type of fight you prefer, a long range stand off or a close range slober knocker. At close range you want to be able to penetrate the belt as your shots are going to be preaty straight on, while at long range you want a heavy enough shell to penetrate the other guys deck at various angles.

Go to the top of the page

Rooijen10

Mr. Valentines Day

Posts: 9,644

20

Thursday, July 3rd 2003, 11:30pm

Nah, I think the minister has been watching too much Monty Python.
Nudge nudge, wink wink, say no more. :-)

You're quite right about those smaller nations. They may not look like much but you'll never know. As Lady Nakamura Maeko often says: "Even the little Bee can harm the mighty Dragon." Maybe in the end you could defeat the smaller nation, but who knows what damage it would cause to your military forces, resources, economy, etc. Maybe it's nothing, but you'll never know.

Walter

Go to the top of the page

WesWorld