WesWorld

Raptor Class, Denmark DD laid down 1927

Displacement:
1,974 t light; 2,052 t standard; 2,215 t normal; 2,344 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
405.97 ft / 390.00 ft x 39.00 ft x 14.00 ft (normal load)
123.74 m / 118.87 m x 11.89 m x 4.27 m

Armament:
5 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns in single mounts, 67.03lbs / 30.40kg shells, 1927 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, majority aft, 3 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 5.65lbs / 2.56kg shells, 1925 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (6x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1923 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 383 lbs / 174 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
8 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.59" / 15 mm -
2nd: 0.59" / 15 mm - -
3rd: 0.59" / 15 mm - -

- Conning tower: 0.59" / 15 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 44,744 shp / 33,379 Kw = 35.00 kts
Range 5,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 292 tons

Complement:
160 - 209

Cost:
£0.973 million / $3.891 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 48 tons, 2.2 %
Armour: 19 tons, 0.9 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 17 tons, 0.8 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 2 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 1,130 tons, 51.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 697 tons, 31.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 240 tons, 10.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 80 tons, 3.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
568 lbs / 258 Kg = 8.5 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
Metacentric height 1.6 ft / 0.5 m
Roll period: 13.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.54
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.364
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.98 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Mid (50 %): 15.50 ft / 4.72 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 14.50 ft / 4.42 m
- Stern: 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Average freeboard: 15.82 ft / 4.82 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 185.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 113.3 %
Waterplane Area: 9,580 Square feet or 890 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 67 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 40 lbs/sq ft or 193 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.72
- Overall: 0.56
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Your thoughts please, gentlemen!

First thought: Let´s see what he got.

Second thought: Uh-oh - 130mm DP-mounts?

Third thought: BC of 0,364 - wasn´t there an agreement not to go below 0,38.

Fourth thought: I was right!

From the Gentlemen´s Rules:

"Point 5: Block Coefficient
No bc less than 0.38 is allowed. Only small high speed planing or semi-planing hulls are allowed to have a bc smaller than that. "

missed that!
back to the drawing board!

Also what's wrong with high angle/ low angle mounts, turrets I can understand (sort of) , but mounts??


Changed the BC.........

Raptor(a) Class, Denmark DD laid down 1927

Displacement:
1,971 t light; 2,049 t standard; 2,211 t normal; 2,340 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
401.55 ft / 385.00 ft x 37.00 ft x 14.00 ft (normal load)
122.39 m / 117.35 m x 11.28 m x 4.27 m

Armament:
5 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns in single mounts, 67.03lbs / 30.40kg shells, 1927 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, majority aft, 3 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 5.65lbs / 2.56kg shells, 1925 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (6x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1923 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 383 lbs / 174 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
8 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.59" / 15 mm -
2nd: 0.59" / 15 mm - -
3rd: 0.59" / 15 mm - -

- Conning tower: 0.59" / 15 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 45,787 shp / 34,157 Kw = 35.00 kts
Range 5,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 291 tons

Complement:
160 - 209

Cost:
£0.979 million / $3.914 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 48 tons, 2.2 %
Armour: 19 tons, 0.9 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 17 tons, 0.8 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 2 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 1,142 tons, 51.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 682 tons, 30.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 240 tons, 10.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 80 tons, 3.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
535 lbs / 243 Kg = 8.0 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
Metacentric height 1.4 ft / 0.4 m
Roll period: 13.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.65
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.388
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.41 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.66 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 66 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Mid (50 %): 15.50 ft / 4.72 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 14.50 ft / 4.42 m
- Stern: 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Average freeboard: 15.81 ft / 4.82 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 187.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 103.1 %
Waterplane Area: 9,042 Square feet or 840 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 66 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 39 lbs/sq ft or 190 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.83
- Overall: 0.56
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Much better! ;o)

Regarding mounts - I was just thicking that DP-main armament is a little bit ahead of times. That´s all. You asked for our thoughts after all..... ;o)

Quoted

Originally posted by HoOmAn
Much better! ;o)

Regarding mounts - I was just thicking that DP-main armament is a little bit ahead of times. That´s all. You asked for our thoughts after all..... ;o)

I was just curious as to your thoughts against them as a few other designs going around at the moment have dp mounts.

How many years ahead of time do you think they are?

Bow = Dual Purpose
- You shoot the arrows at the marching soldiers who are out to loot your house and have a good time with your wife.
- You shoot the arrows at the flying birds who are crapping on your head.
:-)

Quoted

I was just curious as to your thoughts against them as a few other designs going around at the moment have dp mounts.

How many years ahead of time do you think they are?

With the exception of late-war designs from the Americans, Japanese or British navies kept low-angle main armament for their DDs through most of the 30s and early 40s. IIRC, the French never introduced a DP-mount for their 130mm guns used on their DDs and DLs.

Well IIRC there are some DP mounts but they likely wouldn't have a very good performance at this stage in history.

DP guns of this time only had an elevation of about 40-50 degrees. Fine against level bombers, but not good against dive bombers. Then again, dive bombers don't exist yet.

A 1920's era DP would be considered a high/low angle mount by the 1930's and probably inadequate by the 1940's.

Pre War AA was intended to spoil the aim of an attacking aircraft. Shooting it down was a bonus.

Using the main armament of a DD in an AA role would probably mean the choice between a high velocity gun 45 or 50 cal vs a shorter low velocity 40 or 35 cal gun in a high angle mounting. The US was using 25 cal at this time but this was optimised for an AA role.

Cheers,

I was reading about the US 5 inch/25 cal on Navweaps... so DP would roughly be in the mid thirties. First purpose built DP would be later.

Thanks, that answers my query percectly.
So for pratical DP mounts then 4" or 100mm at best?

I've switched to 1 pixel = 6" or 15 cm for this drawing, just to see how it would turn out, and this is what I plan to build....what do you think?

Raptor(a) Class, Denmark DD laid down 1927

Displacement:
1,971 t light; 2,049 t standard; 2,211 t normal; 2,340 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
401.55 ft / 385.00 ft x 37.00 ft x 14.00 ft (normal load)
122.39 m / 117.35 m x 11.28 m x 4.27 m

Armament:
5 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns in single mounts, 67.03lbs / 30.40kg shells, 1927 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, majority aft, 3 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 5.65lbs / 2.56kg shells, 1925 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
14 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (7x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1923 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 384 lbs / 174 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
8 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.59" / 15 mm -
2nd: 0.59" / 15 mm - -
3rd: 0.59" / 15 mm - -

- Conning tower: 0.59" / 15 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 45,784 shp / 34,155 Kw = 35.00 kts
Range 5,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 291 tons

Complement:
160 - 209

Cost:
£0.979 million / $3.914 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 48 tons, 2.2 %
Armour: 20 tons, 0.9 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 17 tons, 0.8 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 2 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 1,142 tons, 51.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 682 tons, 30.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 240 tons, 10.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 80 tons, 3.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
533 lbs / 242 Kg = 7.9 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
Metacentric height 1.4 ft / 0.4 m
Roll period: 13.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.64
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.388
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.41 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.66 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 66 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 17.00 ft / 5.18 m
- Mid (50 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Stern: 15.00 ft / 4.57 m
- Average freeboard: 15.83 ft / 4.82 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 187.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 102.3 %
Waterplane Area: 9,042 Square feet or 840 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 66 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 39 lbs/sq ft or 189 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.84
- Overall: 0.57
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

P.S. wave to Sven in the Crow's nest!!!

Very nice!

The main guns look fine from above...but from the side they look a little strange, almost 'too long'.

Instead of spider-cider, the 57mm mounts now look like some sort of starfighter. :-)

"Hi, Sven! See any Indian cruisers out there?"

I don't see him in the top view. Perhaps he's wearing dress whites in that pic.

Nice pic. Very nice. Though I'd quibble that her end is kinda blocky even with a transom stern. How'd she look with the stern tapering into as far as the outside of the DC rails?

I must admit, a very impressive drawing CG.

"Hi Sven!"

Pretty good paint job, CG - your skills improved a lot since your very first drawing. :o)

I second Swamphen´s statement - her guns seem a tid bit too large/long from the side but are otherwise very good.

Btw, what inspired you to use this kind of "swan neck"-kind of bows?

Cheers,

HoOmAn

And to answer your points....

Swamphen - The main guns look fine from above...but from the side they look a little strange, almost 'too long'.

Instead of spider-cider, the 57mm mounts now look like some sort of starfighter. :-)

I thought so myself, but wasn't sure. I'll trim them by a couple or 3 feet.

Try swatting my 57's now!!!


Rocky - I don't see him in the top view. Perhaps he's wearing dress whites in that pic.

Nice pic. Very nice. Though I'd quibble that her end is kinda blocky even with a transom stern. How'd she look with the stern tapering into as far as the outside of the DC rails?

He's an energetic little guy, it was hell's own time getting him to stand still long enough to get him in the side view!

As for the hull taper at the stern....watch this space!


HoOmAn - I second Swamphen´s statement - her guns seem a tid bit too large/long from the side but are otherwise very good.

Btw, what inspired you to use this kind of "swan neck"-kind of bows?

Guns - agreed

As for the bow, I have always liked that style of bow, I think they are sort of 'sporty' looking, makes her look like she's doing 20 even when she's stopped!