WesWorld

On 1/1/27, the Republic of the Philippines will transfer three vessels (one in the Coast Defense Treaty category, the other two in the Type B Destroyer category) to help establish the newly-formed nation of Pacifica.

As this is not a sale, but a donation to help a fledgling navy, the Philippines considers that these ships will no longer be counted against their Treaty tonnage.

In the same way, Italy could "donate" some warships to Timbuktu. Then in a completely unrelated matter, Timbuktu could "donate" infrastructure points to Italy.

I have to agree with RA, if they are donations I would think in the interest of fairness they need to be part of your tonnage alotment. Otherwise we stand on the slippery slope of having a clandestine SATSUMA fleet in Chosen, Formosa and Pacifica unlimited by the CT or infrastructure rules which could spark other nations to do the same.

At either rate the current CT rules make it impossible to "donate" ships to other nations without them still being part of your tonnage.

The conditions for disposing of warships are clearly specified in the Treaty. That is why Presidente Malvar/Princess Royal still counts against British tonnage limits...

Well, then, I reckon they'll just have to be counted...at least until the Treaty is revised to allow sales of warships.

Or you could just build them new ships.

Unfortunately we all have to wait till 28 to make ammendments to the CT.

Well, I won't bother with the CT bit, but as for Pacifica itself...

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In the same way, Italy could "donate" some warships to Timbuktu. Then in a completely unrelated matter, Timbuktu could "donate" infrastructure points to Italy.

If you have looked at the recent Japanese reports (which I know you have since you made a remark about the 'huge' size of the Pacifica Fleet), you will have seen that the Pacifica Infrastructure consists of: one type I dock (under construction). That's all. There are no slips there and there are no factories there.
I do like to hear from you where infrastructure points or warship materials are going to come from without a factory being present in that nation. I could start building one, but with the amount of infrastructure points currently being poured into Pacifica, it will take at least 8 years before one factory is completed.
While your Timbuku will be able to "donate" those infrastructure points to other nations, Pacifica can not do that.

From a sim standpoint that would make things worse, if infrastructure is there then technically it belongs to a player so donating ships definately wouldn't change your tonnage tally.

Unless the island nation is (in a sense) receiving foreign aid.

The infrustructure any factory produced in Pacifica would belong to Pacifica, and any ship "sold, or donated" would also belong to that nation, not the original nation. That is how business works if I recall. Of course if Pacifica is a puppet state...well like all puppet states, it is officially a country of its own....yet its will is controlled by another in most cases (see Soviet satelite states in Eastern Europe and to a lesser extent, Western Europe....because if I recall Western Europe was rebuild in the 1940s and 1950s with funds from the United States....so would that make all the infrustructure of Western Europe under the United States? and all the naval production since then?)

Yes I know it is a sneaky, and tricksy way to get more ships and perhaps infrustructure, but in the world, isn't that how things work?

The only reason these nations have to "donate" vessels is to get around the "no selling of old warships clause" of the treaty, (and is that any warships, or only capital ships?) and therefore must keep the warship on their own books until such time as a rewrite can be obtained. However, I do not recall any clause that says you cannot sell new construction to a foreign nation. These ships would not be counted as part of the original nation's tonnage.

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However, I do not recall any clause that says you cannot sell new construction to a foreign nation. These ships would not be counted as part of the original nation's tonnage.

That's correct. But it doesn't work for me, since I'm providing 'slightly used'* ships... ;-)



* - Salesman: "This car has had only one careful owner."
Buyer: "But look at it! It's a wreck!"
Salesman: "The other three owners were not as careful, I'm afraid."

I think in this case you would have to build and donate (price = $0) new ships. Not transfer existing ones.

Setting up a 'new' nation and filling it with castoffs seems like some sort of CT dodge. To avoid this you should probably donate IP instead so they can build their own factory and start paying for ships.

Cheers,

Is that any old warships, or only pre-1921 capital ships?

Put it this way. Once you build a ship - it has an age limit (even pre treaty ones). If you can dispose of underage ships at will and then replace them with new tonnage, then that contravenes the treaty.

Cheers,

Theres nothing to stop you from building ships for another country as per the CT rules, but turning over existing ships will still count against your tonnage reguardless if they are freebe's or not.

I doubt a navy would donate a new warship for free.

Neither of those responces answers the actual question.

The Question is: Does the treaty restrict the sale of all warship types that where built before the treaty was signed?

Or does the Treaty only restrict the sale of pre-treaty capital ships?

Heres the exact answer your looking for....

H. RULES FOR DISPOSAL AND CHANGE OF OWNERSHIP OF VESSELS OF WAR

I.

The present Treaty provides for the disposal of vessels of war in the following ways:

(i) By scrapping (sinking or breaking up);
(ii) By converting the vessel to a hulk;
(iii) By converting the vessel to target use exclusively;
(iv) By retaining the vessel exclusively for experimental purposes;
(v) By retaining the vessel exclusively for training purposes.

The present Treaty does not provide for disposal by way of sale to
another Contracting Power or to a non-Contracting Power.

No vessel converted or retained by a Contracting Power in accordance
with points (ii) to (v) above, as more closely described in Articles
V-VIII below, shall be charged against any tonnage allowed that
Contracting Power.

As I've said, its a real pain in the arse for those of us who would like to ditch some older ships, but we will just have to "wait till 28".

Does that mean that I have the only real supplier for selling used warships aside from Turkey and Germany?

Hmmm, maybe I could get the Japanese and Filipinos to buy some of my old ships through Pacifca, for Pacifica.....

Well the Turks certainly won't be selling any ships.

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Hmmm, maybe I could get the Japanese and Filipinos to buy some of my old ships through Pacifica, for Pacifica.....

You could sell your ships to Pacifica yes, why go through any SATSUMA middlemen?

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Originally posted by Ithekro
Does that mean that I have the only real supplier for selling used warships aside from Turkey and Germany?

No, you have some serious competition fron the Royal Danish Shipyards, and Design Bureau in Aarhus!!