WesWorld

Instead of building 2 8,000t coast defense ships i can build this beaut by combining the tonnage. I ascertained that monitors are somewhat useless for Italy and this would be a better ship. My line of heavy cruisers is getting very impressive.......


MM Taranto, Italian Battlecruiser laid down 1934

Displacement:
15,669 t light; 16,440 t standard; 18,257 t normal; 19,638 t full load
Loading submergence 937 tons/feet

Dimensions:
679.20 ft x 76.80 ft x 24.50 ft (normal load)
207.02 m x 23.41 m x 7.47 m

Armament:
9 - 10.00" / 254 mm guns (3 Main turrets x 3 guns, 1 superfiring turret)
10 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns (5 2nd turrets x 2 guns)
24 - 1.59" / 41 mm AA guns
Weight of broadside 4,869 lbs / 2,208 kg
8 - 24.5" / 622.3 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
Belt 10.00" / 254 mm, ends unarmoured
Belts cover 80 % of normal area
Main turrets 7.10" / 180 mm, 2nd turrets 2.00" / 51 mm
Armour deck 4.00" / 102 mm, Conning tower 3.00" / 76 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 103,839 shp / 77,464 Kw = 31.00 kts
Range 10,100nm at 15.00 kts

Complement:
785 - 1,020

Cost:
£7.255 million / $29.019 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 609 tons, 3.3 %
Armour: 5,097 tons, 27.9 %
Belts: 1,532 tons, 8.4 %, Armament: 1,094 tons, 6.0 %, Armour Deck: 2,426 tons, 13.3 %
Conning Tower: 45 tons, 0.2 %, Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 2,987 tons, 16.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,976 tons, 38.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,588 tons, 14.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Metacentric height 3.7

Remarks:
Hull space for machinery, storage & compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation & workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Estimated overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Relative margin of stability: 1.05
Shellfire needed to sink: 22,627 lbs / 10,264 Kg = 45.3 x 10.0 " / 254 mm shells
(Approx weight of penetrating shell hits needed to sink ship excluding critical hits)
Torpedoes needed to sink: 2.7
(Approx number of typical torpedo hits needed to sink ship)
Relative steadiness as gun platform: 70 %
(Average = 50 %)
Relative rocking effect from firing to beam: 0.51
Relative quality as seaboat: 1.02

Hull form characteristics:
Block coefficient: 0.500
Sharpness coefficient: 0.35
Hull speed coefficient 'M': 7.89
'Natural speed' for length: 26.06 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim: 69
(Maximise stabilty/flotation = 0, Maximise steadiness/seakeeping = 100)

Estimated hull characteristics & strength:
Underwater volume absorbed by magazines and engineering spaces: 79.4 %
Relative accommodation and working space: 122.6 %
(Average = 100%)
Displacement factor: 115 %
(Displacement relative to loading factors)
Relative cross-sectional hull strength: 1.00
(Structure weight / hull surface area: 140 lbs / square foot or 684 Kg / square metre)
Relative longitudinal hull strength: 1.08
(for 18.00 ft / 5.49 m average freeboard, freeboard adjustment 0.92 ft)
Relative composite hull strength: 1.00

While you´re right that this is a decent design, you´re not allowed to build it instead of 8kts coastal armorclads. Such a battlecruiser/superheavy cruiser has to be rated against Italy´s capital ship tonnage. As you can see, coastal defence vessels are not allowed to exceed 8kts.

On the other hand, as I said above, it is an interesting design. Surely a real cruiser killer. Just that it has to be rated as a capital unite.

If you look at Iberia's designs, that was the exact direction I was headed before this unmentionable CT came into the world. I have always maintained that without the WT that would have been the direction development would have taken.

cheers

Bernhard

PS: compare my El Cid class

You'll find that i am quite within my rights to build this ship. it does count as capital ship tonnage. I can build 9 ships on 280,000t.
5x40,000
2x32,000
then either 2 8,000t ships or 1 16,000t ship.

As a flagship for my cruiser squadron she is perfect and has no equal in the world. Unless you guys want to use capital ship tonnage on large armoured cruisers like her......

posted the same message again

Yes, you´re right that under your capital tonnage you´re allowed to build those units.

But I was refering to Part 3 D I+II of the Cleito Treaty which is about Coastal Defence Units. There the limit for such units is set to 8kts so that every power can build up to 5 oots (or more smaller) CDS IN ADDITION to its capital tonnage allowed. That´s what this discussion is all about, though.

Its a neat design but i'm not sure even with Atlantis's larger capital ship tonnage alotment I would build such a ship. She's faster than any current BB but there are several BC's in the world that could catch her.
Technically she sort of fits the german "pocket battleship" role, where she outguns anything faster and outruns anything that out guns her. If one builds or retains capital units and has 16,000 unused tons it would be a good way to use it up if they do not desire to upgrade seriously old units.

A nice design, though the armor may be a bit excessive if your prey are cruisers. Is she fast enough to catch French and Greek cruisers?

Quoted

A nice design, though the armor may be a bit excessive if your prey are cruisers. Is she fast enough to catch French and Greek cruisers?

Not the new ones

Visit my Russian/French fantasy fleet page:http://admkuznetsov.tripod.com

Well making her faster means compromising protection. In her present state she would be able to stand up to Salamis or her sister and give a good account of herself. Armour currently is proof against 6" fire and has a large immune zone against 8" fire.

Unless France's cruisers are more than 1 or 2knts faster it doesn't really make a difference. There is only a small advantage from 1knt extra speed. As well the rest of my heavy cruiser designs are only slightly faster--however that can be changed....

Her long range would make her a good ship for my Indian ocean squadron operating from Mogadishu. That is if and when i finish the port, and if i decide to base a squadron there.

Quoted

Unless France's cruisers are more than 1 or 2knts faster it doesn't really make a difference. There is only a small advantage from 1knt extra speed. As well the rest of my heavy cruiser designs are only slightly faster--however that can be changed....

The Suffren class heavy cruisers just laid down make 32.5, and the De Grasse class light cruisers make 33. Indeed, a difference that makes only has a very minor tactical effect. With this small difference, escape would depend on being at long range to begin with, plenty of sea in front, and no hits to the engines. These conditions might not be easily met in the Med.


MM Taranto would also make a good carrier-hunter. She could cover quite a distance over the course of a night.

Visit my Russian/French fantasy fleet page:
http://admkuznetsov.tripod.com

i hadn't thought of her as a carrier killer. She could cover 300nm in a night. Roughly the same distance as the planes from the carrier i think? Once she gets to within 10,000yds the carrier will have had it. her 10" guns will destroy any carrier and her armour will be good versus 8" or smaller guns carried by a carrier.

It is easy to run out of space in the Medittereanean.

Quoted

It is easy to run out of space in the Medittereanean.

So aren't you afraid that while you are engaging the carrier, a pair of enemy BBs or BCs might suddenly appear behind you ? There are quite a few navies that have access to and will operate in the Mediterranean Sea: Iberia, France, Italy and Greece all have coasts directly on the Mediterranean. The UK will operate there. The Russian Federation has it's Black Sea Fleet and the Med is the only exit from that area. If I am correct, Atlantis has some conquered territory there as well, so they'll be operating there as well. 7 nations in all. The Mediterranean is going to be an interesting area to watch.

Walter

I was toying with the thought of having a territorial dispute over who owns Crete as its mart of the Atlantis myth but I'm not sure who controls crete in 1921. I do have close ties with France and Russia so I could find myself operating in the Med some day. My battlecruisers would have a feild day in the Med with their speed.
These super cruisers would be better suited for commerce raiding for sure allthough the heavy guns are abit of overkill. If they can handle the Atlantic they would have a very nice role. Emagine a Taranto at a pre denmark straights. She would have shaken off those British cruisers with her superior guns and never would have even met the POW and Hood.

How fast are your battlecruisers? Francesco Caracciolo can do 28knts with ease and would be a fearsome opponent. Excellent firepower and protection. Planes will be the biggest threat in the Med however.

Greece controlled Crete from 1913 onwards.

MM Taranto would be a one off and is definately an Armoured cruiser rather than super cruiser. She is armoured better than Alaska or Renown. I don't think Atlantic sorties would be on the cards as the Indian ocean has easier pickings. Staging from Mogadishu MM Taranto can go to Fremantle and back. Anyway she's laid down in 1934.

Yes the Med will indeed be an area to watch. However Italy and Greece have the advantage of only having 1 coast. eg France has the Atlantic and the Med.

Indeed. Same goes for Iberia and the Russian Federation. Unlike all those other nations, Greece and Italy don't have to spread out their fleet along multiple oceans/seas.

Quoted

I don't think Atlantic sorties would be on the cards as the Indian ocean has easier pickings.

I doubt his imperial majesty likes to hear that. that's getting pretty close to the Pacific. There are, of course, three nations with coasts on the Indian: South Africa, India, and Australia. I doubt it that they like it if some Mediterranean-based naval force enters the Indian ocean with (perhaps) hostile intentions. :-)


Walter

"I don't think Atlantic sorties would be on the cards as the Indian ocean has easier pickings."

To keep you informed: For the SAE the Indian Ocean is seen as its backyard and we really don´t like to have someone searching for "easy picckings" in that region.

And keep in mind: Mogadishu is only ~1000km away from our next navy base and we´re pretty sure we can controll everything and everybody that/who tries to enter the Indian Ocean via the Suez Channel, Bab-el-Mandeb and the Gulf of Aden.

Maybe you should watch out for "easy pickings" somewhere else... ;o)

(Otherwise your MM Taranto might not even reach Mogadishu if hostile actions can not be avoided.)

The Raj is never pleased at seeing yet another European imperialist power establishing itself in the Indian Ocean. But it's not like he has the power to prevent it...yet...

On a more practical level, why would Italy foresee a need for a large commerce raider in the Indian Ocean?

J

Italy does not forsee a need for a large commerce raider. It meerly comes with the size of the ship. Raiding with ships like this is definately not up my street. Lots of merchant ships fitted with guns a torpedoes are a lot more effective and cheaper. MM Taranto was designed as either a carrier escort(too fast though) or to operate with my heavy cruisers.

His Imperial majesty can dismiss his worries. Italy is long way from the Pacific.

If Britain still 'owns' Egypt then slipping through by Port Said will be easy. If not then its the long way round. Why would this ship have hostile intent? She would just become flagship for the Mogadishu squadron.

If the Indian Ocean is SAE's backyard then Italy will come and set fire to your shed.

More seriously, The vast majority of the Italian Fleet will be in the Med keeping an eye on France.

Whaddya mean keeping an eye on France?? Italy's got 50% more BBs allowed than France, and two less oceans to worry about. Much more of this talk, and the Atlantean and Russian fleets will be invited for a cruise through the Med