WesWorld

I've not found a successful way to build a 350 ton or lighter destroyer using Stringstyle. I was actually using a real ship design and I came up with negatives in the vital statistics.

Will someone try these ships out to see if they can work? These ships will finish off my warships at the start of 1925. (execpt for the submarines).

Capitan O'Brien - 311 tons
213 ft x 22.5 ft x 8.5 ft.
1 12 pounder
5 6 pounders
2-3 18 inch torpedo tubes (deck mounted)
30 knots using a 6500 HP coal burning engine.
normal radius 900 miles at 15 knots with 90 tons of coal.

Capitan Thompson - 350 tons
213 ft x 21.5 ft x 5.33 ft.
1 12 pounder
5 6 pounders
2 18 inch torpedo tubes (deck mounted)
30 knots using a 6500 HP coal burniing engine.
normal radius 1150 miles at 15 knots with 120 tons of coal.

Small, fast combatants are extremly difficult to sim. For some ships you simply have to use 'hand-drawn' stats.

Added 0,1 ft to the draught, 1 6pdr less, the 6500 HP engine only does a bit over 26 knots.

Capitan O´Brien, Chilean Old Destroyer laid down 1901

Displacement:
302 t light; 311 t standard; 356 t normal; 390 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
213,00 ft / 213,00 ft x 22,50 ft x 8,60 ft (normal load)
64,92 m / 64,92 m x 6,86 m x 2,62 m

Armament:
1 - 2,99" / 76,0 mm guns in single mounts, 13,39lbs / 6,07kg shells, 1901 Model
Breech loading gun in deck mount
on centreline forward
4 - 2,24" / 57,0 mm guns in single mounts, 5,65lbs / 2,56kg shells, 1901 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 36 lbs / 16 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 80
2 - 18,0" / 457,2 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 6.500 ihp / 4.849 Kw = 26,01 kts
Range 900nm at 15,00 kts (Bunkerage = 80 tons)
Caution: Delicate, lightweight machinery

Complement:
40 - 53

Cost:
£0,044 million / $0,178 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 4 tons, 1,3 %
Machinery: 215 tons, 60,6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 82 tons, 23,1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 54 tons, 15,1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
79 lbs / 36 Kg = 5,9 x 3,0 " / 76 mm shells or 0,1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 2,04
Metacentric height 1,6 ft / 0,5 m
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 42 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,05
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0,70

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,302
Length to Beam Ratio: 9,47 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 14,59 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 61 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 6,80 ft / 2,07 m
- Forecastle (10 %): 6,80 ft / 2,07 m
- Mid (50 %): 6,80 ft / 2,07 m
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 6,80 ft / 2,07 m
- Stern: 6,80 ft / 2,07 m
- Average freeboard: 6,80 ft / 2,07 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 204,6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 74,6 %
Waterplane Area: 2.920 Square feet or 271 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 17 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 18 lbs/sq ft or 87 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,46
- Longitudinal: 1,03
- Overall: 0,50
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is extremely poor
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

______________________________________________

Added 1ft to the draught, the engines are good for almost 25 knots. In both classes the cross-sectional strength is under 0,5 and both are poor seaboats, but was the better I could get.

Capitan Thompsom, Chilean Old Destroyer laid down 1899

Displacement:
339 t light; 350 t standard; 417 t normal; 468 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
213,00 ft / 213,00 ft x 21,50 ft x 6,33 ft (normal load)
64,92 m / 64,92 m x 6,55 m x 1,93 m

Armament:
1 - 2,99" / 76,0 mm guns in single mounts, 13,39lbs / 6,07kg shells, 1899 Model
Breech loading gun in deck mount
on centreline forward
5 - 2,24" / 57,0 mm guns in single mounts, 5,65lbs / 2,56kg shells, 1899 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 42 lbs / 19 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 80
2 - 18,0" / 457,2 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 6.500 ihp / 4.849 Kw = 24,67 kts
Range 1.150nm at 15,00 kts (Bunkerage = 120 tons)
Caution: Delicate, lightweight machinery

Complement:
45 - 59

Cost:
£0,051 million / $0,204 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 5 tons, 1,2 %
Machinery: 248 tons, 59,5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 86 tons, 20,7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 77 tons, 18,5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
97 lbs / 44 Kg = 7,2 x 3,0 " / 76 mm shells or 0,1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,99
Metacentric height 1,5 ft / 0,5 m
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 42 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,07
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0,71

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,503
Length to Beam Ratio: 9,91 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 14,59 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 67 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 8,20 ft / 2,50 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 8,20 ft / 2,50 m
- Mid (50 %): 8,20 ft / 2,50 m
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 8,20 ft / 2,50 m
- Stern: 8,20 ft / 2,50 m
- Average freeboard: 8,20 ft / 2,50 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 201,2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 79,6 %
Waterplane Area: 2.943 Square feet or 273 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 20 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 17 lbs/sq ft or 82 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,47
- Longitudinal: 0,95
- Overall: 0,50
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is extremely poor
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

Well thank you for trying. I'll have to build replacements for those ship early I suppose.

In both cases cross-sec hull-strength is below 0,5 - a no-no in WesWorld for oceangoing vessels.

Quoted

In both cases cross-sec hull-strength is below 0,5 - a no-no in WesWorld for oceangoing vessels.

Well, there might be no other option if one really wants to sim a DD that is that small.

I've posted the three classes of small destroyers in the Chile section. Two of them seem like they work, the Capitan Thompsom is not a very good seaboat.

I did have one major trouble with ships this size that I did not copy into the data.

Quoted

Warning: Block coefficent < 0.3 or > 1.00

With the real dimentions and tonnage, I could not alter the form to get the ship above 0.3. In fact their Block coefficent is 0.28 for the 311 ton ships. The Capitan Thompson (350 tons) was above 0.3 but ended up a bad seaboat.

No real explainations here. I'm just reporting what I found.

Quoted

Originally posted by Rooijen10
Well, there might be no other option if one really wants to sim a DD that is that small.

Well, you surely can build a ship that weak but it always will be exactly that - weak. Think of what happened to japanese destroyers in heavy weather, think of the german F-class Flottenbegleiter which got cracks all over the hull. Weren´t seaworthy once sea state was above 4 or 5 - much like small fast motorboats used in coastal waters...

We agreed to not let cross sectional hs drop below 0,5 for ocean going small fast combatants. Everything else was and further should be rated as great risk to the ships survivability.

That's why I foisted off...er, sold those two DDs to Romania.

"Relative cross-sectional hull strength: 0.47"

Better the Black Sea than the South China Sea...

Well this was my solution after tweeking on it for several hours. This is about the best I think I can do while staying within the reality of these ships.

Capitan O'Brien
Capitan Merino Jarpa

Chilean Destroyer laid down 1902 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
266 t light; 275 t standard; 311 t normal; 339 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
215.17 ft / 213.00 ft x 21.50 ft x 8.50 ft (normal load)
65.58 m / 64.92 m x 6.55 m x 2.59 m

Armament:
1 - 2.88" / 73.3 mm guns in single mounts, 12.00lbs / 5.44kg shells, 1902 Model
Quick firing gun in deck mount
on centreline forward
5 - 2.29" / 58.2 mm guns in single mounts, 6.00lbs / 2.72kg shells, 1902 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 42 lbs / 19 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
3 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 4,986 ihp / 3,719 Kw = 25.00 kts
Range 900nm at 15.00 kts (Bunkerage = 66 tons)

Complement:
36 - 48

Cost:
£0.037 million / $0.147 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 5 tons, 1.7 %
Machinery: 165 tons, 52.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 91 tons, 29.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 46 tons, 14.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 5 tons, 1.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
83 lbs / 38 Kg = 6.9 x 2.9 " / 73 mm shells or 0.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.25
Metacentric height 0.7 ft / 0.2 m
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 100 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.17
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.18

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.280
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.91 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 14.59 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 85
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 4.30 degrees
Stern overhang: 1.00 ft / 0.30 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 15.50 ft / 4.72 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 9.50 ft / 2.90 m
- Mid (50 %): 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
- Stern: 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
- Average freeboard: 7.71 ft / 2.35 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 185.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 74.9 %
Waterplane Area: 3,112 Square feet or 289 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 38 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 18 lbs/sq ft or 90 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.50
- Overall: 0.55
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Capitan Thompson

Chilean Destroyer laid down 1898 (Engine 1910)

Displacement:
289 t light; 299 t standard; 350 t normal; 389 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
214.00 ft / 213.00 ft x 21.50 ft x 5.33 ft (normal load)
65.23 m / 64.92 m x 6.55 m x 1.62 m

Armament:
1 - 2.88" / 73.3 mm guns in single mounts, 12.00lbs / 5.44kg shells, 1898 Model
Quick firing gun in deck mount
on centreline forward
5 - 2.29" / 58.2 mm guns in single mounts, 6.00lbs / 2.72kg shells, 1898 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 42 lbs / 19 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
2 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 6,465 ihp / 4,823 Kw = 25.25 kts
Range 1,150nm at 15.00 kts (Bunkerage = 92 tons)

Complement:
39 - 52

Cost:
£0.041 million / $0.162 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 5 tons, 1.5 %
Machinery: 186 tons, 53.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 93 tons, 26.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 61 tons, 17.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 5 tons, 1.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
91 lbs / 41 Kg = 7.6 x 2.9 " / 73 mm shells or 0.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.20
Metacentric height 0.7 ft / 0.2 m
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 75 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.16
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.79

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.502
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.91 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 14.59 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 67 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 95
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 4.75 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Mid (50 %): 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
- Stern: 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
- Average freeboard: 8.59 ft / 2.62 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 184.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 92.0 %
Waterplane Area: 2,939 Square feet or 273 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 39 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 18 lbs/sq ft or 88 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.16
- Overall: 0.54
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Capitan Orella
Capitan Munoz Gamero
Teniente Serrano
Guardia Marina

Chilean Destroyer laid down 1897 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
266 t light; 275 t standard; 311 t normal; 339 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
215.00 ft / 213.00 ft x 21.50 ft x 8.50 ft (normal load)
65.53 m / 64.92 m x 6.55 m x 2.59 m

Armament:
1 - 2.88" / 73.3 mm guns in single mounts, 12.00lbs / 5.44kg shells, 1897 Model
Quick firing gun in deck mount
on centreline forward
5 - 2.29" / 58.2 mm guns in single mounts, 6.00lbs / 2.72kg shells, 1897 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 42 lbs / 19 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100
2 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 4,986 ihp / 3,719 Kw = 25.00 kts
Range 900nm at 15.00 kts (Bunkerage = 66 tons)

Complement:
36 - 48

Cost:
£0.037 million / $0.147 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 5 tons, 1.7 %
Machinery: 165 tons, 52.9 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 91 tons, 29.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 46 tons, 14.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 5 tons, 1.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
81 lbs / 37 Kg = 6.7 x 2.9 " / 73 mm shells or 0.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.23
Metacentric height 0.7 ft / 0.2 m
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 100 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.16
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.09

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.280
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.91 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 14.59 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 91
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 4.30 degrees
Stern overhang: 1.00 ft / 0.30 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 13.25 ft / 4.04 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
- Mid (50 %): 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
- Stern: 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
- Average freeboard: 7.39 ft / 2.25 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 185.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 85.8 %
Waterplane Area: 3,112 Square feet or 289 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 38 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 19 lbs/sq ft or 92 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.34
- Overall: 0.55
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Slower than historically they seem much better now...

What is the idea/concept behind such a small "destroyer" if there´s any?

Build in the late 1890s and early 1900s. Large torpedo boats seem to be the main thing here. Torpedo boats with some guns. Back then, the torpedo was feared to be the end all weapon on naval combat, as the ranges were getting longer and the boats delivering them, getting bigger. A Destroyer like this would have been average I suppose, or just under average in 1900. Pretty much like the old British B-class Destroyers.

But does it make sense to keep such "destroyers" around - in the 1920s? With their limited size everything short of coastal defence will be impossible as the Pacific can be a nasty place for small ships. They also lack the capability to get enhanced throughout the years...

Which is why they were scrapped sometime around 1930 historically. (after 1925 but before 1936...I'm still trying to get my hands on a 1931 Jane's to confirm a few things.)