WesWorld

D 9 Class Destroyer laid down 1915

SCRAPPED
Vessels-
K.D.M. D9
K.D.M. D10
K.D.M. D11
K.D.M. D12


Displacement:
1,541 t light; 1,593 t standard; 1,800 t normal; 1,958 t full load
Loading submergence 175 tons/feet

Dimensions:
280.00 ft x 30.00 ft x 12.00 ft (normal load)
85.34 m x 9.14 m x 3.66 m

Armament:
4 - 4.50" / 114 mm guns
2 - 2.00" / 51 mm AA guns
4 - 0.51" / 13 mm guns
Weight of broadside 191 lbs / 86 kg
4 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
Belt 0.50" / 13 mm, upper belt 0.25" / 6 mm, ends unarmoured
Belts cover 100 % of normal area
Main belt does not fully protect magazines and engineering spaces
Main gun shields 0.50" / 13 mm, Light gun shields 0.25" / 6 mm
Armour deck 0.50" / 13 mm, Conning tower 0.75" / 19 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 41,037 shp / 30,614 Kw = 31.00 kts
Range 5,500nm at 12.00 kts

Complement:
138 - 179

Cost:
£0.318 million / $1.273 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 24 tons, 1.3 %
Armour: 102 tons, 5.7 %
Belts: 40 tons, 2.2 %, Armament: 3 tons, 0.2 %, Armour Deck: 57 tons, 3.2 %
Conning Tower: 2 tons, 0.1 %, Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 1,034 tons, 57.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 381 tons, 21.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 259 tons, 14.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Metacentric height 1.2

Remarks:
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Hull space for machinery, storage & compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation & workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Estimated overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Relative margin of stability: 1.24
Shellfire needed to sink: 396 lbs / 180 Kg = 8.7 x 4.5 " / 114 mm shells
(Approx weight of penetrating shell hits needed to sink ship excluding critical hits)
Torpedoes needed to sink: 0.2
(Approx number of typical torpedo hits needed to sink ship)
Relative steadiness as gun platform: 82 %
(Average = 50 %)
Relative rocking effect from firing to beam: 0.37
Relative quality as seaboat: 1.24

Hull form characteristics:
Block coefficient: 0.625
Sharpness coefficient: 0.38
Hull speed coefficient 'M': 7.04
'Natural speed' for length: 16.73 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 76 %
Trim: 66
(Maximise stabilty/flotation = 0, Maximise steadiness/seakeeping = 100)

Estimated hull characteristics & strength:
Underwater volume absorbed by magazines and engineering spaces: 195.5 %
Relative accommodation and working space: 125.2 %
(Average = 100%)
Displacement factor: 53 %
(Displacement relative to loading factors)
Relative cross-sectional hull strength: 0.44
(Structure weight / hull surface area: 30 lbs / square foot or 149 Kg / square metre)
Relative longitudinal hull strength: 2.15
(for 19.50 ft / 5.94 m average freeboard, freeboard adjustment 8.75 ft)
Relative composite hull strength: 0.52

D 5 Class Destroyer laid down 1912

SCRAPPED
Vessels-
K.D.M. D5
K.D.M. D6
K.D.M. D7
K.D.M. D8

Displacement:
1,034 t light; 1,069 t standard; 1,201 t normal; 1,301 t full load
Loading submergence 137 tons/feet

Dimensions:
285.00 ft x 32.00 ft x 12.00 ft (normal load)
86.87 m x 9.75 m x 3.66 m

Armament:
4 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns
4 - 0.51" / 13 mm guns
Weight of broadside 128 lbs / 58 kg
4 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
Belt 0.75" / 19 mm, upper belt 0.50" / 13 mm, ends unarmoured
Belts cover 100 % of normal area
Main belt does not fully protect magazines and engineering spaces
Main gun shields 0.60" / 15 mm, Light gun shields 0.25" / 6 mm
Armour deck 0.50" / 13 mm, Conning tower 1.00" / 25 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 20,283 shp / 15,131 Kw = 29.00 kts
Range 4,000nm at 12.00 kts

Complement:
101 - 132

Cost:
£0.130 million / $0.519 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 16 tons, 1.3 %
Armour: 120 tons, 10.0 %
Belts: 70 tons, 5.8 %, Armament: 3 tons, 0.3 %, Armour Deck: 44 tons, 3.7 %
Conning Tower: 2 tons, 0.2 %, Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 573 tons, 47.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 301 tons, 25.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 167 tons, 13.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 25 tons, 2.1 %

Metacentric height 1.5

Remarks:
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Hull space for machinery, storage & compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation & workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Estimated overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Relative margin of stability: 1.33
Shellfire needed to sink: 362 lbs / 164 Kg = 11.3 x 4.0 " / 102 mm shells
(Approx weight of penetrating shell hits needed to sink ship excluding critical hits)
Torpedoes needed to sink: 0.3
(Approx number of typical torpedo hits needed to sink ship)
Relative steadiness as gun platform: 70 %
(Average = 50 %)
Relative rocking effect from firing to beam: 0.14
Relative quality as seaboat: 1.25

Hull form characteristics:
Block coefficient: 0.384
Sharpness coefficient: 0.30
Hull speed coefficient 'M': 8.19
'Natural speed' for length: 16.88 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 66 %
Trim: 56
(Maximise stabilty/flotation = 0, Maximise steadiness/seakeeping = 100)

Estimated hull characteristics & strength:
Underwater volume absorbed by magazines and engineering spaces: 166.6 %
Relative accommodation and working space: 98.7 %
(Average = 100%)
Displacement factor: 64 %
(Displacement relative to loading factors)
Relative cross-sectional hull strength: 0.49
(Structure weight / hull surface area: 30 lbs / square foot or 149 Kg / square metre)
Relative longitudinal hull strength: 1.68
(for 14.00 ft / 4.27 m average freeboard, freeboard adjustment 4.09 ft)
Relative composite hull strength: 0.56

D 1 Class Destroyer laid down 1908

SCRAPPED
Vessels-
K.D.M. D1
K.D.M. D2
K.D.M. D3
K.D.M. D4


Displacement:
1,005 t light; 1,037 t standard; 1,200 t normal; 1,325 t full load
Loading submergence 132 tons/feet

Dimensions:
270.00 ft x 30.00 ft x 12.00 ft (normal load)
82.30 m x 9.14 m x 3.66 m

Armament:
3 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns
4 - 0.51" / 13 mm guns
Weight of broadside 96 lbs / 44 kg
3 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
Belt 0.75" / 19 mm, upper belt 0.50" / 13 mm, ends unarmoured
Belts cover 100 % of normal area
Main belt does not fully protect magazines and engineering spaces
Main gun shields 0.60" / 15 mm, Light gun shields 0.25" / 6 mm
Armour deck 0.50" / 13 mm, Conning tower 1.00" / 25 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 15,891 shp / 11,854 Kw = 27.00 kts
Range 4,000nm at 12.00 kts

Complement:
101 - 132

Cost:
£0.127 million / $0.506 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 12 tons, 1.0 %
Armour: 112 tons, 9.4 %
Belts: 65 tons, 5.4 %, Armament: 2 tons, 0.2 %, Armour Deck: 43 tons, 3.6 %
Conning Tower: 2 tons, 0.2 %, Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 580 tons, 48.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 276 tons, 23.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 195 tons, 16.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 25 tons, 2.1 %

Metacentric height 1.4

Remarks:
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Hull space for machinery, storage & compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation & workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Estimated overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Relative margin of stability: 1.35
Shellfire needed to sink: 369 lbs / 167 Kg = 11.5 x 4.0 " / 102 mm shells
(Approx weight of penetrating shell hits needed to sink ship excluding critical hits)
Torpedoes needed to sink: 0.3
(Approx number of typical torpedo hits needed to sink ship)
Relative steadiness as gun platform: 71 %
(Average = 50 %)
Relative rocking effect from firing to beam: 0.12
Relative quality as seaboat: 1.22

Hull form characteristics:
Block coefficient: 0.432
Sharpness coefficient: 0.32
Hull speed coefficient 'M': 7.77
'Natural speed' for length: 16.43 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
Trim: 58
(Maximise stabilty/flotation = 0, Maximise steadiness/seakeeping = 100)

Estimated hull characteristics & strength:
Underwater volume absorbed by magazines and engineering spaces: 166.2 %
Relative accommodation and working space: 91.9 %
(Average = 100%)
Displacement factor: 65 %
(Displacement relative to loading factors)
Relative cross-sectional hull strength: 0.54
(Structure weight / hull surface area: 30 lbs / square foot or 146 Kg / square metre)
Relative longitudinal hull strength: 1.61
(for 13.00 ft / 3.96 m average freeboard, freeboard adjustment 3.09 ft)
Relative composite hull strength: 0.60

Canine Class, Denmark DD(L) laid down 1927

K.D.M. Schaeferhund
K.D.M. Tyrhund
K.D.M. Broholmer
K.D.M. Granddanois

Displacement:
1,536 t light; 1,600 t standard; 1,745 t normal; 1,862 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
371.28 ft / 359.00 ft x 34.00 ft x 13.00 ft (normal load)
113.17 m / 109.42 m x 10.36 m x 3.96 m

Armament:
4 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns in single mounts, 67.03lbs / 30.40kg shells, 1927 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 5.65lbs / 2.56kg shells, 1927 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (6x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1927 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 1 raised mount
Weight of broadside 316 lbs / 143 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
4 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -
2nd: 0.59" / 15 mm - -
3rd: 0.59" / 15 mm - -

- Conning tower: 0.59" / 15 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 40,713 shp / 30,372 Kw = 35.00 kts
Range 5,250nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 262 tons

Complement:
134 - 175

Cost:
£0.780 million / $3.121 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 40 tons, 2.3 %
Armour: 13 tons, 0.7 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 11 tons, 0.6 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 2 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 911 tons, 52.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 513 tons, 29.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 209 tons, 12.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 60 tons, 3.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
428 lbs / 194 Kg = 6.4 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.25
Metacentric height 1.5 ft / 0.5 m
Roll period: 11.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.32
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.385
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.56 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.87 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 67 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forecastle (25 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Mid (53 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m (10.00 ft / 3.05 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Stern: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Average freeboard: 14.73 ft / 4.49 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 189.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 118.9 %
Waterplane Area: 7,737 Square feet or 719 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 59 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 34 lbs/sq ft or 164 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.96
- Overall: 0.57
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Lancer, Denmark DD laid down 1931

K.D.M. Lance
K.D.M. Spear
K.D.M. Javelin
K.D.M. Harpoon
K.D.M. Trident
K.D.M. Pike
K.D.M. Fauchard
K.D.M. Glaive
K.D.M. Guisarme
K.D.M. Halberd
K.D.M. Voulge
K.D.M. Poleaxe
K.D.M. Phalarica
K.D.M. Xyston

Displacement:
1,447 t light; 1,502 t standard; 1,706 t normal; 1,870 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
346.28 ft / 330.00 ft x 32.00 ft x 14.00 ft (normal load)
105.55 m / 100.58 m x 9.75 m x 4.27 m

Armament:
4 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (2x2 guns), 52.72lbs / 23.91kg shells, 1931 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 1 raised mount
4 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1931 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1931 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 219 lbs / 99 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 160
8 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.97" / 50 mm 0.79" / 20 mm -
2nd: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.79" / 20 mm -
3rd: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.79" / 20 mm -

- Conning tower: 0.79" / 20 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 37,839 shp / 28,228 Kw = 34.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 369 tons

Complement:
132 - 172

Cost:
£0.850 million / $3.400 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 27 tons, 1.6 %
Armour: 22 tons, 1.3 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 20 tons, 1.1 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 2 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 865 tons, 50.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 473 tons, 27.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 259 tons, 15.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 60 tons, 3.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
439 lbs / 199 Kg = 8.3 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.17
Metacentric height 1.2 ft / 0.4 m
Roll period: 12.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.29
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.404
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.31 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 20.95 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 69 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.00 ft / 0.91 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 23.00 ft / 7.01 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m
- Mid (55 %): 18.00 ft / 5.49 m (10.00 ft / 3.05 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Stern: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
- Average freeboard: 14.80 ft / 4.51 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 179.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 66.7 %
Waterplane Area: 6,762 Square feet or 628 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 67 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 33 lbs/sq ft or 159 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 2.54
- Overall: 0.59
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Dagger class, Denmark DD, laid down 1937

K.D.M. Acicnaces
K.D.M. Baselard
K.D.M. Cinqueda
K.D.M. Dirk
K.D.M. Øredaggert
K.D.M. Facón
K.D.M. Gladius
K.D.M. Hachiwara
K.D.M. Ishakke
K.D.M. Jambiya
K.D.M. Khanjali
K.D.M. Løvblad
K.D.M. Misericorde
K.D.M. Navaja
K.D.M. Okapi
K.D.M. Pugio
K.D.M. Qama
K.D.M. Rondel
K.D.M. Stiletto
K.D.M. Tanto
K.D.M. Urumi
K.D.M. Xiphos
K.D.M. Yatagan
K.D.M. Zulfiqar

Displacement:
1,241 t light; 1,284 t standard; 1,351 t normal; 1,405 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
357.70 ft / 340.00 ft x 32.00 ft x 10.25 ft (normal load)
109.03 m / 103.63 m x 9.75 m x 3.12 m

Armament:
4 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (2x2 guns), 52.72lbs / 23.91kg shells, 1937 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread
6 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1937 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all amidships, 1 raised mount - superfiring
8 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1937 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
4 - 0.51" / 13.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.07lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1937 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, all forward, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 222 lbs / 101 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 120
10 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.79" / 20 mm -
2nd: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.79" / 20 mm -
3rd: 0.79" / 20 mm 0.79" / 20 mm -

- Conning tower: 0.79" / 20 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 36,672 shp / 27,357 Kw = 35.00 kts
Range 3,000nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 121 tons

Complement:
110 - 144

Cost:
£0.887 million / $3.548 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 28 tons, 2.1 %
Armour: 18 tons, 1.4 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 16 tons, 1.2 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 2 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 684 tons, 50.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 461 tons, 34.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 109 tons, 8.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 3.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
398 lbs / 180 Kg = 7.5 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 1.1 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 12.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.30
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.424
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.63 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.15 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 70 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 35.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.00 ft / 0.91 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 16.50 ft / 5.03 m
- Mid (50 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Stern: 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Average freeboard: 15.24 ft / 4.64 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 182.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 65.6 %
Waterplane Area: 7,062 Square feet or 656 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 58 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 32 lbs/sq ft or 156 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 2.56
- Overall: 0.59
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform