WesWorld

Prople asked for more action and fun. Fine with me.

More action and fun means several conflicts all over the world.

The UK has territories and possessions all over the world.

Whereever a conflict will occur the British will be touched.

If it is just a small, fast brawl like the Andaman Situation the UK will surely stay out of harms way but whenever something grows larger or is lasting longer than a few weeks the British will surely raise their voice - either sending diplomats or a part of their fleet.

It is not reasonable nor logic to believe the UK would stay neutral all the time.

So we either need somebody to take care of the UK - a player - or we cannot have all the fun because it would be unrealistic.

Please note: When this SIM started is was NOT meant to be a roleplaying game. It was created as a place to collect alternative designs and ideas. Thus it was not necessary to play the UK or the USA.

However, things changed as we took on more and more players. The charackter of the SIM changed and sacred cows have to be slaughtered to keep it running.

The influence of the UK is too important to be ignored and only a player can provide adequate reactions. Just look at our other discussions - especially those about rules - and you´ll understand that we´ll never find a consensus regarding what the UK does or does not if we have to script everything because there´s no player.

The huge difference to the US is that the Americans don´t have possessions everywhere and thus can affort to stay neutral. Their motherland provides everything they need.

This is not true for the UK.

Sorry for throwing a wrench in plans but I just want to be absolutely sure we are ok with the UK being played.
We initially were very much against the U.S. or UK being played, but now it seems some have warmed up to the idea.

If no one else has any conserns I'd like to bury this discussion and declair the UK a playable nation.

I'm enjoying the touch of nervousness it produces...

I still think that a point can be made for Oz to be independent and be played by GC for instance. He has said several times that he would like to play something else as well and I don't think it's fair to him to let Hoo play Nordmark and Wes Turkey and invite two new players and not give him something that's a bit bigger than Siam.

I'm fine with Britain being played. I've assumed from the start that there's a substantial British presence to my west, and have been constantly "rattling the sabre" since the sim began. It'll be good to have somebody rattle it back at me.

German roleplaying will also benefit from a British player, as I can work on Versailles-related issues there.

With all due respect to CG, who's done good work since he got here, the sim is not strictly about giving everybody the chance to play as many nations as they wish.

If he needs something else to do, I think I'd rather see him assigned to whatever's left of the anti-Nordmark alliance in South America. There's potential to generate story-arcs with Chile, South Africa, Nordmark, and others, the area's not already saturated with player-nations, and I'm guessing there'd be a lot of work to do in re-building the fleet.

I stand by my earlier assessment that we don't need an Australian player when the UK is Gorilla #2 in our zoo.

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If he needs something else to do, I think I'd rather see him assigned to whatever's left of the anti-Nordmark alliance in South America. There's potential to generate story-arcs with Chile, South Africa, Nordmark, and others, the area's not already saturated with player-nations, and I'm guessing there'd be a lot of work to do in re-building the fleet.

So is this how things now stand?
Nordmark -> Hoo
Turkey -> Wes
Chosen/Formosa -> Walter
UK -> Gravina
Chile -> Ithekro
?Brazil -> Commodore?

I'm guessing there ain't much left of the Argies' fleet, once those Vikings got done with it...

Now, obviously after this we'll 'close' the sim, but I believe we should 'plan out' the remaining NPCs fleets, using historical data (with a few minor tweaks here and there). Any objections?

Nordmark -> Hoo
Turkey -> Wes
Chosen/Formosa -> Walter
UK -> Gravina
Chile -> Ithekro

It shall be done, *lightning crackel!* Mwaahahahahaa

As for CG controlling another nation I think most of us are against the aussies being seperated from the 985 pound gorilla known as the UK, so as suggested Brazil is an option.

Keep in mind once this discussion is done, the sim will be closed, to put a few minds at ease and to keep things consistant.

I was away in Washington D.C. for my cousin's wedding, but I am back now.

Brazil, eh? Well one will have to make up a large deal of history for it as Portugal doesn't exist as a nation in this world, so many of the things that happened to it, might not have happened in this reality.

Speaking of reality...what happened to Napoleon in WesWorld? That will effect the Americas, Iberia, and likely how Europe (Germany specifically) turned out in the 1800s.

I'm muddled too. I have three Jigsaws open at the moment (Harry's Greece, WW1 and now Atlantis's Turkey) and I can't fit all the pieces together. Reworking pieces from changing history (depending on what you read) is getting a bit of a burden. Emigrating to Australia feels like the best option.

I'd rather lock down what has happened before spending anymore time messing around in M$ Excel.

Ithekro makes an important point and maybe fitting all the pieces of Wesworld together should be more important that Q1 1925.

Cheers,

I studied History in College. While that doesn't mean I know all that much about world history, I can usually find a way to get that information...if it was large and important enough for someone to write it down and publish it many times over. (I focused on the America West, so detailed histories of anything east of the Mississippi River and some areas of the world are generally beyond my studies, general stuff I might know, and most wars).

I do think that it is important that we have a relatively stable backstory and world history to get us to 1920 (where we write our own history).

There are many things that could have changed that will effect society, politics, nations, and products of war. It this case, it is the nations that need to be made from a more solid base to make everything fit together. While I can understand that this is primarily a ship construction and management sim, knowing why the world is how it is will reflect on out ship designs, technologies, alliances, infrustructures, and in some cases, how a nation came into being, and therefore reflect its national will into warship building.

I asked about Napoleon because he conquors Spain and Portugal in our world. Spain becomes a puppet state of France as do the Spanish Colonies, which fuels their independence movements. The King of Portugal fled to Brazil and ran the empire from there until Napoleon was defeated. He then went home and left his son in charge of things. Well Brazil broke off (having liked being the center of the Empire) and formed its own Empire. It freed is slaves gradually in the late 1800s, and eventually became a non-imperial state. It then played in land grabbing wars with many of its neighbors, and participated in a naval race with Argentina (What became HMS Agincourt was originally ordered by the Brazilian Government to overshadow Argentina before money troubles forced them to sell it to Turkey).

But there are many things that could have happened in the Napoleonic War and the War of 1812....because Atlantis is here. The Atlantic is not so big with that huge island sitting out there. It would depend on how France and England (and the new United States) related to the island, as to what would happen. (there are many things that could happen, or might not have happened....the Tripoli Landings by the U.S. Marines in early 1800s while being supported by most of the new U.S. Navy (Constitution and Enterprise for example).

The aftermath of the wars with Napoleon would also set how Germany would come about.

I'll assume most of the early AD and BC periods went as normal save for some oddities with trade from Atlantis to Rome (and others) and the New World? (if there was contact between the Old World and the New World throughout time...would the diseases have been so devistating to the Natives like they were after 1492? Which also brings up how the New World was "discovered" by Europe. This involves Iberia (or mayby Spain still depending on how things with the Moors and Atlantis are going), Atlantis, and maybe Nordmark....depending on how far back its united kingdom of Norway, Sweden, and Finland go. (Sweden use to be the major power up there by he way).

This might not be truely important for simming ships in the 1920s...but it is relevant for understanding the stories written to justify changes in warship design.

Just a (large) thought.

I've been thinking Roger, if Atlantis not possessing Istambul seriously effects your Greek history perhaps i should simply redraw the mandate and edit the past news report on the borders.

I do agree we need to Iron out a few loopholes in the wesworld history, but for now lets let some of our players get the next quarterly report prepared, then we can move on to the history loopholes. When that is done we can then post Q1/25 reports and move along once again.

If we let CG play Brazil we need to define what happens with Nordmarks war, that may take some time.

Perhaps we need a history thread to get things loosely worked out.

Good, Sounds like a plan! Finish 1924 Q4 and then tackle a timeline.

My problem was making Harry's and your parts link up. Harry had a different WW1 (Turkey isn't clobbered) which is rather pivotal.

With my 'Naval_Counterfactual' stuff it was pointed out that I had multiple points of departures but what I wanted to do was to use as many (modified fleets) fitting together as I could. This is similar to what Wesworld is with the addition of a 'Tarrantry' like entity (Atlantis) that is in itself another POD. After my N_C was shot down in flames I went to picking one part and fitting it in the real world. A Spanish Empire is my current project.

I think we need some adjustments but they should be 'player neutral'. No one should have to re jig spreadsheets and fleets etc but also there should be no sudden capacity acquired either. If existing players want more of a challenge then we should accommodate that and If people want to come on board - we should be able to accommodate that too.

As a starting point perhaps we should put a timeline with a point of departure for our country as we see it in our Encyclopedia section - see what people have outlined and then move from there. Add in links to important stories etc to make it easier for people to follow what has happened. We will probably need to make room for 'clashes' and also new players but then we can all be on the same hymn page.

What does everyone think?

Cheers,

Guess I'll have to by a Portugese-English dictionary then! Assumimg no-one objects, I'll play Brazil.
And I suppose it will be on hold until we sort out the Nordmark thing?

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Originally posted by alt_naval
As a starting point perhaps we should put a timeline with a point of departure for our country as we see it in our Encyclopedia section - see what people have outlined and then move from there. Add in links to important stories etc to make it easier for people to follow what has happened. We will probably need to make room for 'clashes' and also new players but then we can all be on the same hymn page.

What does everyone think?

This is going to blow everything out of proportion...

I think it would be easier to have 1-1-1920 as a fix date. We have defined or will define how WesWorld looked at that date. No need to really (re)write history. Just accept it as it is. Then go from there. That´s what we originally had in mind. I find it difficult to "reverse engineer" everything now while we´re already into the sim.

Surely it would be nice to have a complete historical background but I´m not sure if it can be done - probably if we restart but that´s definitively NOT what I want.

However, if you guys need to fix history I´m fine with it. I also agree to delay Q1/25 until things are worked out (even though somebody already posted his Q1/25 report).

But I also like to point out that I have no good idea how to tweak history to fit the SAE into it even though I know quite a few things about history. I once discussed these matters with Peng when we settled down the relationship between Nordmark and the SAE. We had some small but weird ideas how it could be done but I hardly expect this to fit into a worldwide history.

Probably somebody can help me with it? I´ll provide what I roughly put together a long time ago and if you have enough time and knowledge it can be tweaksed into world history.

So fire away. I´ll watch the fireworks from the sidelines. ;o)

Keep it coming,

HoOmAn

I've assumed that Germany was essentially historical until 1-1-20, recognizing that the war and the resulting peace were somewhat different in detail - but not enough to radically change the fundamentals.

India's history, which is documented already in the encyclopedia, impacts on the British Empire and to a lesser degree on other European nations active in that region. However, India's only just started throwing her weight around in the last few years, so hasn't really upset world history much if we assume that some chunk of Pakistan, Afghanistan, and/or Iran became the new "Jewel in the Crown" for Britiain.

I'm kinda with Hooman here. It's important to understand the very recent past - WW1 - to eliminate obvious inconsistencies. But I don't see a lot of value in going back to the Iron Age or whatever except to develop character. It's an exercise that could have, and maybe should have, been done before the sim started, but doing it now may leave us staring at some obvious problems we just can't resolve.

if we wanted to actually develop a constistent history from te early days on, everything would be different through the sheer existence of Atlantis - America stlled from Europe 2000 years ago at the least for instance. So please not let's go there.

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for now lets let some of our players get the next quarterly report prepared

Heh - I've already got my next four quarterly reports prepared!

I agree with Hoo and LA - working out a complete history, although fun, would wind up having more holes than a Swiss cheese factory with a mouse infestation.

For "WesWorld2", we should prepare the whole shebang, before starting the sim - but for WesWorld As We Know It, I suggest just running with what we have (aside from explaining Brazil ), and moving on to Q1/25 A.S.A.P.

BTW, I suggest that Brazil should have the same infrastructure as Chile: 7/20.

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Originally posted by Swamphen
BTW, I suggest that Brazil should have the same infrastructure as Chile: 7/20.

In WesWorld part of southern Brazil belongs to SAE territory. Not sure how much this influences Brazils infrastructure but wasn´t Chiles the bigger of the ABC-navies? If so Brazil should have less resources. Otherwise I´m fine with it.

hmm, I'd give it as much as Chile. How many BBs did it have again according to Peng?

Quoted

Originally posted by HoOmAn
In WesWorld part of southern Brazil belongs to SAE territory. Not sure how much this influences Brazils infrastructure but wasn´t Chiles the bigger of the ABC-navies? If so Brazil should have less resources. Otherwise I´m fine with it.

That depends on how much of Brazil do you have. If you gobbled parts of São Paulo state, then it changes a lot.

Settlement patterns will change also. All those Italians, Germans, Poles, Ukrainians, and so on who settled in the southern states will have to go elsewhere.