WesWorld

The SAE got their chunk of Argentina far enough back in history that the Argentines developed a population centre further south. Presto, problem solved.

On to the next crisis...

alt_naval: i posted a two-liner in the history thread. that's nearly all I have. I won't do any more, i don't have the time or inclination. Don't try and understand this as a coherent world, it isn't. it's a playing field to build warships in. Why are there that many more ships? because we wanted to build them. only reason there is.

Sorry for being a pain, its just, like I said, I don't know why things are as they are.

While the explaination of South Africa being there is sound, it does not answer the question on when. That question needs answering.

Actually it is two simple questions:

1. When did the SAE form as an Empire? (so we can see how long they have been around as a power)

2. When did it land territory in the New World? (So we can see how long the population centers around its territory have had to build up).

If there is no desire to have answers for these questions, then I'll make something up. But I'd rather not step too much on others toes just for two simple years. After that I can come up with the various wars fought in South America between the native populations, the colonial powers, and the independent states.

Be warned though. I might have to make drastic changes to South American History. I will look through what sources I can find about the region in WesWorld, but if I can't find a logical way to arrive at the Nordmark-Argintina War....then what? Scrap the war? I'd like not to. (Though it would free the land mass of the baggage that is hanging over it at the moment and allow for some flexing).

I'd just like to know what has happened already so I don't write something that contradicts someone else. To play a navy in action, one must know who its friends and enemies are. To know that one must know why things are as they are at the present, which brings us to the question of when things happened to get us to the present. (there are wars being fought today that are thousands of years old. We don't know why they fight except because they have always fought. But one has to know that much in order know that your simple peace talks will never stop them from fighting in one generation.)

I've found the Nordmark stories, and they gives some information (though I've not yet found when Nordmark came to be Nordmark), and the small piece that says Iberia came together after 1812 helps, that just leaves the whens for South Africa to complete the puzzle enough for me to just go at it myself.

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"You don't have to understand it; you only have to accept it."

Unfortunately, a historians job is to not accept it, but to understand it first. Our job is to find out why things happened and when. Accepting it as it is without question means we are out of a job.

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, but if I can't find a logical way to arrive at the Nordmark-Argintina War....then what? Scrap the war? I'd like not to. (Though it would free the land mass of the baggage that is hanging over it at the moment and allow for some flexing).

Uh-uh. The war has got to stay.

Perhaps you could say that the SAE played a role in throwing out Iberia, and kept the land as a "service fee"? That sound likely to you, Hoo? This might work, seeing as there are friendly relations between (a) SAE and Nordmark, and (b) Chile and Nordmark, that would possibly allow you to complete the set...

definitetely sounds reasonable to me

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While the explaination of South Africa being there is sound, it does not answer the question on when. That question needs answering.

not it doesn't. most of us are not interested. this is not a historic game, it is about building warships. can I say this any plainer?

sorry for being that agressive, but it really sounds like you are trying to change our game because you think that this is how it should be played ...

I like the way you are stepping back from that, but still, we were quite happy so far with the way we were playing, if you step into a game I'd expect you to acceopt the way it runs, rather than trying to change it as the first thing you do.

As to the war, forget scrapping it, Hoo has made it pretty clear that it is there to stay. And Argentinia is not your nation to mess with anyway...

and:

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Sorry for being a pain, its just, like I said, I don't know why things are as they are.

the word you are looking for is "arbitrary" they are that way because we decided they were that way. Iberia for instance obviously did not come out of the US-Iberian war nearly as badly as historically, although in the course of that war ndia managed to snatch Diego Garcia.

South Africa's clearly been a major power since 1906, because they were laying down dreadnoughts by then.

It would seem reasonable to assume they were a regional power in the 1800's, as they incorporated what historically are several French colonies (Cameroon, Mozambique, Madagascar) either before the French showed up, or were powerful enough to boot the French out afterward. I vaguely recall Hooman making reference to a conflict with France, but can't find the specific post. Either way, it implies a powerful state before the European colonization game got in to full gear in, what, the 1880s?

In South America, Swampy's idea isn't bad - they help evict Iberia, probably when the other colonies gain their independence. Afterward, when SA hangs onto Uruguay, a good chunk of the Uruguay population emigrates to Argentina. Why? Maybe they don't want to be anybody's subjects, or maybe it's a Catholic population that doesn't want to be Protestant (or whatever SA is). Enough go, early enough, that there is now a population/industrial base large enough to handle dreadnoughts in the navy - except they're probably there to deter Chile and South Africa, rather than Brazil.

Argentina may distrust South Africa because they perceive it to be an imperialist threat, or because the government wants an external bogeyman to distract the people from internal issues. They may dislike Nordmark for the same reasons once Nordmark showed up in 1920/21, or perhaps it's a "The Friend of my Enemy is my Enemy" mentality.

As for Chile and Nordmark, there's no reason they have to like each other; it may simply be that the two have had successful business dealings. Perhaps Chile had a President-for-Life who got along well with the Nordmark royals and didn't like what happened to them.

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Argentinia is not your nation to mess

That may be so, but it is my neighbor and Chile and Argentina do not get along generally. Knowing what state it is in will deturming if the time has come to attack Argentina or wait and build up more forces.

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this is not a historic game, it is about building warships

True, but one cannot just build warships. One must have the infrustructure to build said warships. One must also have a reason to build said warships. Chile's reason to build warships was to counter Argentina, so I have a big interest in why Argentina is as it is, and with the historically most populated centers in African hands, I need to know when this happened so I can gauge how Chile's fleet would have developed in this reality.

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Perhaps you could say that the SAE played a role in throwing out Iberia

I'd thought along simmilar line, or that it was competing with Iberia (Spain and Portuagal before 1812 if I understand this correctly) for colonies, which could mean that the SAE had more territory at one point, but either the Independent nations pushed them back to where they are now (giving Argentina a reason to be stronger with less stuff), or pushed back by the Iberians before independance of those colonies.

As for the war, it should stay, but it really needs to be finished.

As for trying to change you game, I don't want to change it, I just want justification for what is there already. That's why I'm asking questions. I want to know why things are as they are and what others have already written or thought of in this region so I know where I should start. This isn't RISK where you just put your pieces down randomly, this is a naval construction/combat simulation. One needs to know these things before he has a reasonble idea of how he should build, where he should look for support, where he should hunt for prey, and who he should avoid at all costs.

While most of the history might seem unimportant, it some ways it is critical. Its like jumping into a game where you don't know the rules. You have to keep asking questions while you are playing, or you have someone explain it to you at the start (or you read the book). I know some of the rules, but these points I'm trying to clear up are the pieces I'm missing. Knowing how long South Africa has been in South America might seem trivial, but if your a South American country, it is really important to know. It defines the whole situation of the present. (I have a list of questions, but I'll send them directly to Hoo).

While if this stayed a passive sim, with just construction, none of this would be needed. However, if spice is desired, and war is what is requested, then this sort of information is needed to define the causes of war, and the justification for the fleets we desire.

You don't have to come up with a history, but the trouble starts when the stories come up and then, surprize, that idea in the back of your head as to why you have what you have turned around because someone writes something that contradicts what you had in mind, but never said anything about. Having Iberian colonies more or less as they where historically don't effect me at all...I have no problem with Iberia after getting the unification in 1812 line....its things that where not historical and not yet defined are what leave me with questions.

I need to stop writing so much....if I can.

Ithekro,

please read this carefully. I start feeling annoyed and - to some degree - sorry about some decisions during the last weeks and if I´m not entirely wrong some others feel similar (Hey, mark that day on your calender guys - LA and I agreed on something!)

Nevertheless, I´m still interested to save the day - but there are some things I really need to comment on.

"While the explaination of South Africa being there is sound, it does not answer the question on when. That question needs answering."

No, it does not. We - I, if we talk about the SAE - had a set-up for 1-1-1920 and worked from there. I already explained that but you seem to missed it somehow.

If you are a historian I understand your desire to focus on that but again - once more - this is not what this SIM is about. We design ships and analyze them, hoping to learn from collecting sources (just ask LA about diesels for example).

This is what this SIM is about and at least I won´t let you change it. Your profession doesn´t give you the right to annoy people with things they are not interested in.

It is also not necessary to know the history of a country to build warships for it. If you think so, you´re wrong.

As long as your territory and infrastructure is defined, if your neighbors and their fleets are known and if you have a general idea about current politics you can easily develope your own fleet. That´s it and can be answered easily - without all the fuzz about history.

"Be warned though. I might have to make drastic changes to South American History. I will look through what sources I can find about the region in WesWorld, but if I can't find a logical way to arrive at the Nordmark-Argintina War....then what? Scrap the war? I'd like not to. (Though it would free the land mass of the baggage that is hanging over it at the moment and allow for some flexing)."

Be warned?! Have I missed something?

You´re a newcomer. Where I come from kids learn right from the start that newcomers have to accept the established rules when they join an existing game. A newcomer has no right to dictate all others how to play the game they´re playing. A newcomer has to accept the rules - or leave.

"Unfortunately, a historians job is to not accept it, but to understand it first. Our job is to find out why things happened and when. Accepting it as it is without question means we are out of a job."

Fine with me - we´re just not looking for a historian.

The job for an admin is to question the motivation of all visitors to the boards he´s responsible for. If somebody turns out to continuesly annoy others he has to be treated like a troll.

This is not the case here - not yet - but I want to be sure we understand eachother.

"Knowing how long South Africa has been in South America might seem trivial, but if your a South American country, it is really important to know. It defines the whole situation of the present. (I have a list of questions, but I'll send them directly to Hoo)."

I´ve seen them but as you implied I won´t answer them. It doesn´t matter what language the SAE population speaks. It doesn´t matter if they´re black or white. That´s is the way I look at it: They are human beings. They can handle a screwdriver. They can build warships. That´s all I need to know. And if that´s not enough I declare my yards/factories to be fully automatic...

Seriously, to me it is much more important how much pressure a rivet of a certain type can stand before breaking (when used for a torpedo bulkhead for example).

"Having Iberian colonies more or less as they where historically don't effect me at all...I have no problem with Iberia after getting the unification in 1812 line....its things that where not historical and not yet defined are what leave me with questions."

Looks like LA can be called a lucky guy then, eh?
Once you´ve seriously answered my question on how Atlantis influences weather worldwide we can start talking about things not historical in detail. Until then I prefer not to think that much about things not historical.

"I need to stop writing so much....if I can."

Yes, you probably better do as there is only one way for this to go: downhill.

My opinion of course.

Think of it,

HoOmAn

Let me add something here Ithekro: You do sound like you are a teacher who is used to giving homework to his students. This is not a helpful attitude here. We are not your students and we have defined this world. Live with it.

I faltly don't care how many problems for you the Iberian colonies create, my Navy can squash yours without even really noticing, and that is what this game is about to a certain extent. History is ok to explain attitudes but borders and fleetsizes are enough, as can be seen from the rather lively politics on this board.

Accept it as it is.

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I just want justification for what is there already.

Sorry, I don't have to justify myself to you. I have been playing this for over a year now. You are the new kid on the block.

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You don't have to come up with a history,

Again, thanks ever so much for sparing me the homework Sir! Let me spell this out once again. THIS IS NOT YOUR DECISION TO MAKE!

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Originally posted by LordArpad
I have been playing this for over a year now.

hehe.... I´m into this for more than two years now. I just browsed my old files. There is a map dated back to 16.01.2003 (date when saved last time) - and that was not at the very beginning when we got started.

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As long as your territory and infrastructure is defined, if your neighbors and their fleets are known and if you have a general idea about current politics you can easily develope your own fleet. That´s it and can be answered easily - without all the fuzz about history.

That is what I'm trying to find out, but no one is giving me any answers. Just telling me to forget about it.

I don't understand what is so painful and annoying about wanting to know when South Africa gained its piece of South America? It could be a wonderful tool in storytelling. The rest of the questions are fluff, but that one still seems important to me. I'd rather it come from the source. Current politics in South America would be heavily based on when this event happened, and why. I can't change that fact. That is why I'm looking for an answer. It doesn't have to be much more than a year really. I can figure the rest out after that if you'd like me too. I'd just rather it come from Hooman than having to make it up myself and offend him any more than I already have.

This is what I'm trying to say. For the benifit of the story, one should have a backstory to rely on. I learned that the hard way in my fiction writting. While I might be asking lots and lots of questions, my belief is that I'm trying to enrich the world we are playing in. Or in truth, trying to see if anyone else has already enriched this WesWorld from a storytelling point of view. I want to add on to what has already been told...but I can't do that is I don't know what has been told.

I don't want to be a bother for everyone, and I'm not trying to change the world, I just think knowing the world one is suppose to live in is important. I know nothing about South Africa aside that is has a large fleet and territory...nothing else. I don't know its politics, I don't know its methods, I don't know its modivations. How can I realistically play a South American country if I don't know anything about one of my powerful neighbors? How am I suppose to relate to it without that knowledge? Just point me in the correct direction if this information exists already. I need to ease my mind about what South Africa is in the present.

Does this make sense to anyone?

I may have missed the point, but this SIM seems to be about more than just designing ships and analyzing them now. The stories that are being used to insight change in design seem to be important now as well.

I have to agree [with Hoo and LA] - the history, although nice, is not necessary (or necessarily relevant) to WW play. Want a backstory? Make it so that it doesn't conflict with stuff previously posted. If something wasn't posted, it doesn't exsist, so you can't "conflict" with it.

The 'history' here is, by and large, made up as we go along. For instance, it was just two weeks ago (real-time) that we learned that Pakistan was part of the British Empire...

If someone - anyone - posts something, provided it isn't too outrageous the rest of the players work with it/around it. It can get pretty outre - just take a look at the list of names for Walter's Type 3 destroyers.

Also, Occam's Razor applies. The SAE ate a chunk of Argentina, with the two largest historical cities? Well, the Argies just moved further south and built a new metropolis. Simplest solution = correct solution. Plausible? Probably not. But is Atlantis plausible? Didn't think so.

EDIT: Crossed posts with you. I can understand your frustration...but if you don't have a date, make one up. Don't know about the SAE? Chart your own course, and see how they react.

Ithekro,

when I spoke of "general idea" I though of something like this (regarding Chile):

- Not friendly with Argentina (but no hostilities)
- Neutral, probably friendly with SAE
- Neutral/Friendly to Nordmark
- Neutral, most likely not friendly with Brazil
- Neutral/not friendly with most of South America
- Neutral to the rest of the world

All this based on Chile lining up with some european powers during colonization of South America. This way Chile could buy decent technology and infrastructure but is left surrounded by neighbors not all too friendly. However, those neighbors are kept at bay because of those european powers (or their friends like the SAE) still on the continent.

That kind of info together with fleet size and infrastructure should do to go from 1-1-1920.

A similar list about politics could surely be provided by every player to let you know what alliances there are etc. That´s easily done but is NOT what you asked for as yet. Instead you asked us to write down the history of our contries. That´s a different thing.

You further wrote:

"I know nothing about South Africa aside that is has a large fleet and territory...nothing else."

That should be enough, shouldn´t it? Don´t meddle into SAE affairs or you´ll get crushed - that´s all your politicians need to know.

"I don't know its politics, I don't know its methods, I don't know its modivations."

Guess what? I also don´t know it! I have a King, a minister for foreign affairs (to be honest there are two as I mixed something some time ago while writing news - but nobody noticed or nobody cared).

I have a very rough sketch of what happened. It opens a can of worms, though, begging for more rather then less questions.

However, it does explain the very special relationship between Nordmark and the SAE and to some degree how the SAE came into existance.

In no way it really fits together with what I posted elsewhere. It doesn´t even fit to the names of my ships. For example the Koning-(King-)class was originally named after imaginary Kings just for the sake of it. Same for the Queen-class. Much later I wrote a sketch for a timeline - and suddelny there wasn´t enough time for so many Kings and Queens anymore. According to that timeline the SAE never had 4 Kings! It´s simply too young....but that´s no reason for me to change names of my ships of course.

For God´s sake and the piece of my mind I may post it and hopefully I´ll never be asked any questions anymore. But note that I may change this draft at any time I see fit. I don´t feel myself bound to it as it is only a very, very rough sketch.

So should I ever decide to change anything to make it fit my needs and if such action causes problems to your own timeline or history it is and ever will be YOUR problem, not mine. Should this happen you will have to change YOUR history, whatever that means. Names, places and dates may change if I need it for a story or just to name a ship - regardless of what you have based on the original. I won´t care.

There is no fixed history prior to 1-1-1920 for me.

If you agree to this I may post the sketch. If not you´ll have to live without even the slightiest hint of what happened until I feel it necessary to "reveal" something in my news.

That list is a good idea, Hoo. I think I'll post my version of it in the 'histories' thread.

Now, hopefully this will put a lid on this particular can o' worms? Q1 is calling...

A sketch is fine. I just wanted some clue as to what is going on in the world. "History" seemed the most appropriate word for such information, as I figured everyone would know what they themselves are doing with their nations. The whole goal was to not contradict an existing structure, but I have yet no idea what that structure even is.

Why I'm asking this is so I can plot out reations of the other South American Nations in relation to South Africa, the Aftermath of the Nordmark War, and use those reactions to farther enhance Chile's standing in the world...either through diplomacy or conquest.

After that then Chile can use its new found overconfindence to get itself into real trouble in the Pacific either in the late 20s or early 30s (unless the situation changes). And therefore be a catalyst for change in naval development.

I'm fishing for help.

My my, there's been lots of shouting : (

I don't think warship design and construction happens in a vacuum but I wont comment.

I sympathise with Ithekro on his situation and all you old timers can hold hands if you like. Before I went off for a week, I posted a 'Balkan enlargement' trying to fit in what I believed had happened between WW1 and now. It was mainly to justify why Greece even needed a big navy. Since coming back, I have non-player Turkey suddenly real live beast and lots of talk of new players etc. Just to focus on warship problems - not politics or even relations. Harry had Greece lay down 2 battleships in 1915 to reply to Turkey's Agincourt and Erin that they received in 1914. Neither Greece or Turkey participated in WW1. But since Harry started Greece, Red Admiral and Wes have given Turkey a bastard sister for Dante in 1912 and some cruisers and destroyers. Turkey has also gained Goeben as historic - whatever 'Historic' means these days.

Now as Harry was first should I go with that and tell Wes and Gavin that WW1 ain't what you think and you have to go un-Gallipoli all your stuff? I don't think so! I'm sure you can see how frustrating some of the even recent history not being nailed down can be for a newbie like me or Ithekro.

I'm at the point where I'll just have to make some news - then I'll have a fighting chance ; )

If you want spice. I'll spice.

In the last week I've thought about trashing Greece about three times now. Go back to my FEH where I have a handle on all the pieces. If you expect to have enthusiastic people to participate here then until there is a little more certainty to what has happened and if it started did it finish, I suggest there are no new players or new player countries unless you like shouting etc. If someone really wants to participate or an existing player wants a greater challenge? Fine, you can have Greece.

Jeers,
(yes I've had a sh*ty day)

I know I´m a newcomer here but If it´s worth something there goes my opinion. I think people is getting a bit carried away with this all. I understand the need of people like alt_naval and Ithekro to get a bit more background on the alternate histories.

I find myself a bit lost, still reading trough the 11 pages of news that had been written during the lenght of the sim. However the main reason we all are her is to have FUN, I don´t think we should start shouting to each other to see what should be done or not. As I see the best thing to do should be to:

a) Each player writes a simple timeline of their nation as they see it and post it.
b) If anybody want´s more deep insight into history of his neigbours, then PM them and ask for any detail.

Discussing like this could be very harmful for the sim, and I really hope that alt_naval was not serious about leaving the sim (after all the RN needs and ally in the eastern med )

This discussion is over, I'm not particularily happy with the tone thrown around by some of the players in here.

If you want to post your nations History go ahead I'm fine with that and personally I think it helps keep our respective story's from conflicting, if you don't want to post your history I'm fine with that too, but please be advised if conflict with a storyline arrises I expect the party's to refrain from the BS thats been posted in this thread such as

"Let me add something here Ithekro: You do sound like you are a teacher who is used to giving homework to his students. This is not a helpful attitude here. We are not your students and we have defined this world. Live with it."

This dosn't help the situation.....

I hate to pick a certain quote but I expect everyone here to act like civilized adults and not get carried away with their idea's, this is a SIM for petes sake. We have PM boxes, I expect people to use them to resolve issues.