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1

Monday, February 26th 2018, 4:52am

The RCN still exists

Most of the RCN's major building programmes complete in early 1948, so I'm looking at what other projects and priorities should be taking up space in the yards


The RCN currently has;

5 Fleet Carriers, one being used for Commonwealth Training, plus Hermes in reserve
5 Capital ships, all commissioned or modernized in 1937
9 Frigates in service, with the 5 Effinghams laid up.
8 Light Cruisers, all recently modernized
12 Patrol Cruisers, plus 3 being used for Commonwealth Training
4 Light Frigates
32 Fleet Destroyers, the oldest batch being 12 years old.
All WWI era S-class destroyers have been replaced with 48 modern sloops.
20 Fleet submarines, plus 2 Cruiser submarines, and 12 WWI era subs


There's a block obsolescence issue approaching for the RCN's major units; All of the capital ships, and 2 of the carriers all date to 1937, with Furious not that far behind.
A priority is probably refits of Excelsior and Canada, as their design dates older than the refits of the Battlecruisers. They will be updated, but the question is how much to invest in the project; A cheap update to her secondary and AA battery, or a more comprehensive update to bring their speed up, and other tweaks.

A more contentious issue is the fate of the last of the RCN's Grand Fleet relics. By all practical reason, Renown, Repulse, Hood, Courageous, Glorious, and Furious should probably not receive any further investment. However, I'm sentimental and reluctant to dispose of them, and building replacements is prohibitively lengthy and expensive in our economic model. By pure math, 12-15k to further modernize each of them seems worth more than what it'd cost to build a single replacement.

The Serapis class frigates are approaching the need for routine modernization, but not quite there yet. Likewise the early Tribals will start needing life extention refits soon.

2

Friday, March 2nd 2018, 10:40am

The capital ships and older carriers are probably worth refitting for life extension for another 5-10 years use.

The old Great War era stuff is well past the best and probably should be scrapped. I can't see even major reconstruction work being worth the cost given the hull life left.
Saying that replacements on a one-one basis seems overkill, the day of the battleship is over and perhaps its best to start thinking of a couple more new big carriers or some smaller Colossus-like clones, or alternatively more cruisers.

3

Thursday, December 20th 2018, 12:01am

Working on Midlife refits for Canada and Excelsior. First option is a 25% refit that primarily updates the secondary and AA armament, and bulges with bunkerage improvements. Second option is a more comprehensive 50% rebuild with engines and a new bow to bring them up to 31 knots.


HMCS Canada, Canadian Battleship laid down 1932

Displacement:
41,000 t light; 43,350 t standard; 47,074 t normal; 50,053 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
725.82 ft / 720.00 ft x 108.00 ft (Bulges 112.00 ft) x 30.00 ft (normal load)
221.23 m / 219.46 m x 32.92 m (Bulges 34.14 m) x 9.14 m

Armament:
12 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (4x3 guns), 1,938.00lbs / 879.06kg shells, 1932 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
20 - 5.50" / 140 mm guns (10x2 guns), 83.19lbs / 37.73kg shells, 1948 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns (8x2 guns), 5.65lbs / 2.56kg shells, 1948 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
24 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (12x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1932 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 25,016 lbs / 11,347 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 16.0" / 406 mm 470.00 ft / 143.26 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
1.50" / 38 mm 470.00 ft / 143.26 m 28.00 ft / 8.53 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 16.0" / 406 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 12.0" / 305 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm

- Armour deck: 5.50" / 140 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 118,160 shp / 88,148 Kw = 28.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 6,703 tons

Complement:
1,597 - 2,077

Cost:
£19.414 million / $77.657 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,795 tons, 5.9 %
Armour: 15,820 tons, 33.6 %
- Belts: 4,604 tons, 9.8 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 730 tons, 1.6 %
- Armament: 3,892 tons, 8.3 %
- Armour Deck: 6,509 tons, 13.8 %
- Conning Tower: 84 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 3,488 tons, 7.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 18,472 tons, 39.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 6,074 tons, 12.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 425 tons, 0.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
65,518 lbs / 29,718 Kg = 38.8 x 15.0 " / 381 mm shells or 9.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
Metacentric height 7.0 ft / 2.1 m
Roll period: 17.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.70
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.01

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.681
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.43 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 31.15 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 33.00 ft / 10.06 m
- Forecastle (40 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Mid (75 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Stern: 22.00 ft / 6.71 m
- Average freeboard: 23.76 ft / 7.24 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 86.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 167.8 %
Waterplane Area: 63,966 Square feet or 5,943 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 218 lbs/sq ft or 1,064 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.96
- Longitudinal: 1.41
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent



HMCS Canada, Canadian Battleship laid down 1932 (Engine 1948)

Displacement:
45,000 t light; 47,434 t standard; 50,879 t normal; 53,634 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
766.35 ft / 760.00 ft x 108.00 ft (Bulges 112.00 ft) x 30.00 ft (normal load)
233.58 m / 231.65 m x 32.92 m (Bulges 34.14 m) x 9.14 m

Armament:
12 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (4x3 guns), 1,938.00lbs / 879.06kg shells, 1932 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
20 - 5.50" / 140 mm guns (10x2 guns), 83.19lbs / 37.73kg shells, 1948 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
32 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns (16x2 guns), 5.65lbs / 2.56kg shells, 1948 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
24 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (12x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1932 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 25,106 lbs / 11,388 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 16.0" / 406 mm 470.00 ft / 143.26 m 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 95 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
1.50" / 38 mm 470.00 ft / 143.26 m 28.00 ft / 8.53 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 16.0" / 406 mm 8.00" / 203 mm 12.0" / 305 mm
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm

- Armour deck: 5.50" / 140 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 182,311 shp / 136,004 Kw = 31.00 kts
Range 12,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 6,200 tons

Complement:
1,693 - 2,201

Cost:
£20.718 million / $82.873 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,809 tons, 5.5 %
Armour: 16,705 tons, 32.8 %
- Belts: 4,631 tons, 9.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 730 tons, 1.4 %
- Armament: 4,282 tons, 8.4 %
- Armour Deck: 6,974 tons, 13.7 %
- Conning Tower: 89 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 4,455 tons, 8.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 20,456 tons, 40.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,879 tons, 11.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 575 tons, 1.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
72,315 lbs / 32,801 Kg = 42.9 x 15.0 " / 381 mm shells or 10.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.06
Metacentric height 6.3 ft / 1.9 m
Roll period: 18.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 52 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.86
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.94

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.697
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.79 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 31.81 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 55
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 36.00 ft / 10.97 m
- Forecastle (40 %): 28.00 ft / 8.53 m
- Mid (75 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Stern: 24.00 ft / 7.32 m
- Average freeboard: 27.58 ft / 8.41 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 88.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 198.6 %
Waterplane Area: 68,536 Square feet or 6,367 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 220 lbs/sq ft or 1,073 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.49
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

4

Thursday, December 20th 2018, 3:22am

Hey Ping! Good to hear from you.

Personally, I would argue against the 50% refit - for a high cost you'd get a ship with a marginal stability reserve and a less than average seaboat quality. While not stellar in those characteristics the 25% refit gives them higher ratings at less cost.

5

Thursday, December 20th 2018, 10:09am

I agree, the 25% refit looks the best option all round, for expenditure, time, improvements and life extension.
Rebuilding for 31kts is just a step too far for this hull.

6

Monday, December 24th 2018, 1:16am

Midlife refits of the earliest Tribal DDs

Replacement of the first generation 5.5" automatics with more modern, lightweight models.
Replacement of wing quad 40mm with dual 57mm Automatics
Replacement of fore & aft 40mm with modern ASW
All the other usual Quality-of-life improvements



HMCS Iroquois (Tribal class), Canadian Destroyer laid down 1935

Displacement:
2,200 t light; 2,292 t standard; 2,498 t normal; 2,664 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
392.36 ft / 387.00 ft x 36.00 ft x 14.00 ft (normal load)
119.59 m / 117.96 m x 10.97 m x 4.27 m

Armament:
4 - 5.50" / 140 mm guns (2x2 guns), 83.19lbs / 37.73kg shells, 1948 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 5.65lbs / 2.56kg shells, 1948 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (6x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1935 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 358 lbs / 162 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200
10 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.00" / 25 mm 0.25" / 6 mm 0.25" / 6 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 51,473 shp / 38,399 Kw = 35.00 kts
Range 4,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 372 tons

Complement:
176 - 229

Cost:
£1.502 million / $6.008 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 53 tons, 2.1 %
Armour: 11 tons, 0.5 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 11 tons, 0.5 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 1,239 tons, 49.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 777 tons, 31.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 298 tons, 11.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 120 tons, 4.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
711 lbs / 322 Kg = 8.5 x 5.5 " / 140 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.28
Metacentric height 1.7 ft / 0.5 m
Roll period: 11.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.48
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.12

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.448
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.75 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.47 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 68 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 45
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Mid (60 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m (14.00 ft / 4.27 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Stern: 14.00 ft / 4.27 m
- Average freeboard: 17.60 ft / 5.36 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 181.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 87.9 %
Waterplane Area: 9,218 Square feet or 856 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 72 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 39 lbs/sq ft or 190 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 2.57
- Overall: 0.59
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped

7

Monday, December 24th 2018, 2:32am

A pair of carriers to replace Furious, Courageous, and Glorious

HMCS Invidious, Canadian Aircraft Carrier laid down 1948

Displacement:
35,000 t light; 36,014 t standard; 40,436 t normal; 43,974 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
885.64 ft / 880.00 ft x 108.00 ft x 28.00 ft (normal load)
269.94 m / 268.22 m x 32.92 m x 8.53 m

Armament:
8 - 5.50" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 83.19lbs / 37.73kg shells, 1948 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns (8x2 guns), 5.65lbs / 2.56kg shells, 1948 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
48 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (24x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1948 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 768 lbs / 348 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 450

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 4.00" / 102 mm 500.00 ft / 152.40 m 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 87 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.00" / 51 mm 520.00 ft / 158.50 m 22.00 ft / 6.71 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.00" / 51 mm 1.00" / 25 mm 2.00" / 51 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -

- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 157,934 shp / 117,819 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 18,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 7,959 tons

Complement:
1,425 - 1,853

Cost:
£13.879 million / $55.516 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 115 tons, 0.3 %
Armour: 5,725 tons, 14.2 %
- Belts: 1,046 tons, 2.6 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 847 tons, 2.1 %
- Armament: 66 tons, 0.2 %
- Armour Deck: 3,766 tons, 9.3 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 3,860 tons, 9.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 13,300 tons, 32.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,436 tons, 13.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 12,000 tons, 29.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
65,835 lbs / 29,862 Kg = 791.4 x 5.5 " / 140 mm shells or 10.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.23
Metacentric height 8.2 ft / 2.5 m
Roll period: 15.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.02
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.28

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.532
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.15 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 34.29 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 40
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 32.00 ft / 9.75 m
- Forecastle (40 %): 28.00 ft / 8.53 m (20.00 ft / 6.10 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Stern: 20.00 ft / 6.10 m
- Average freeboard: 23.84 ft / 7.27 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 81.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 181.4 %
Waterplane Area: 67,862 Square feet or 6,305 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 153 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 147 lbs/sq ft or 719 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.15
- Longitudinal: 0.96
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily


10000 tons for 100 planes
100 tons for spare planes and parts
100 tons for CIC facilities and other flagship amenities.
100 tons for Radar and other equipment
525 tons for Miscellaneous fleet stores.
25 tons for UNREP gear
1150 tons for Miscellaneous Amenities and Superior this-and-that.

8

Monday, December 24th 2018, 3:05am

I take it that the omission of any deck armor at all is a deliberate choice?

9

Monday, December 24th 2018, 4:40am


- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm

10

Monday, December 24th 2018, 10:18am

The carrier looks good, reasonably priced for the capability, I think the RN carriers are so pricey because I've loaded up the goodies and armour. The Invidious looks balanced over all.

11

Monday, December 24th 2018, 12:30pm


- Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm


Missed that. Sorry.

12

Monday, December 24th 2018, 6:05pm

Here. This looks better. :D

Quoted

1150 tons for Miscellaneous Amenities and Superior this-and-that and Canadian SuperScience!™