WesWorld

Continued from here, so as to not mess up Parador's Chinese news thread.

I have researched through old posts to try to find a definitive statement by AdmK to verify that Russia adopted 12nm limits in 1921. I have not been able to find a post explicitly stating this. However, as noted to Walter earlier, I did find several posts by AdmK which seem to imply that 12nm limits were in fact declared. Further, I have definitely found other posts by multiple people which indicates the 12nm limits were declared.

If this is correct, then the facts in this specific incident change dramatically. If this is correct, when Diomede Fortress fired on the Chinese, then they were already in Russian territorial waters, rather than international waters (as I had originally envisioned, having only remembered the 3-nm limit).

As always, my guiding principle is not to throw out anything done by a previous player, unless it is inherently contradictory or unworkable.

Therefore, I am going to follow in support of the 12nm limits that I believe AdmK claimed for Russia back in 1921. If you have any out-of-character issues with this stance, please speak now (or forever hold your peace).

(If you have IC opposition to this, please call the Russian Federation Government's Ministry of Pigeonholing. Your telephone call will be answered in the order it is received. The Ministry is open every seventh Tuesday from 4 AM to 5 AM. Your call is important to us. Please wait on the line...)

I presume that agreements, bilateral or otherwise, have been worked out where such territorial claims potentially impinge on other nations - Russia/Nordmark/Latvia in the Baltic for example.

In principle the German Foreign Ministry would disagree but given the present circumstances no formal protest would lodged at this time.

As for the general adoption of a 12 mile limit, for all player nations, I am opposed.

I don't think we can reasonably retcon the decision if it was made by AdmK at the time.
There are very few if any players from 1921 still active to remember the event and nobody since has been actively aware or remembered the event. So complaints 27 years later seem futile to say the least. I'm happy to accept the decision of 1921 and I won't contest that (otherwise I'd be tempted to contest a lot of other crazy stuff that went on during 1921 to my own advantage!).

However, given the Baltic and Bering Straits issues thrown up it would be good to have some current clarification on this from Brock as the current player and backdate them to 1921. I don't think it needs to be over-detailed given how close we are to the end of the sim, but the compromises should be clear.

I would assume that the US player had there been one in 1921 would have queried the Bering Strait issue so its a legitimate concern.

Quoted from "parador"

In general I have no problem with the 12 miles zone which are claimed by Russia (no matter 1921 or later), but here in this case i have a problem ! This has nothing to do with the news thread discussion, it is more or less a fundamental problem.

If Russia declares the 12 miles zone, a crossing of the Bering Strait for other ships is only possible if they violate russian territorial waters. This is NOT acceptable ! That would be just as if Macao or Hong Kong is surrounded by chinese territorial waters, here I MUST also introduce an international corridor so that the ships can pass. For that reason and because we have here the same issue, this also MUST be guaranteed and done. In this case, around the Diomedes Islands and on the opposite mainland only a 3 miles zone can be built. Thus, a narrow strip of international waters is possible. Only this is acceptable to me - spoken as player and not as China. Same rights and duties for all players.

No, I'm not going to do that.

Because I don't know what, if any, stipulations AdmK extended with his territorial waters declaration, I'm not going to make any special rules for this case. In cases like Gibraltar, the English Channel, the Bab-el-Mandeb - or the Bering Strait - Russia would understand and support the principle of transit passage, which takes precedence over territorial waters declarations.

Edit to add:
In the case of the Zhuhai, it means that while the ship might have been in territorial waters at the time, they would be following the understanding of transit passage. Alternatively, I can simply increase the range which the guns on Diomede fired, so that the Zhuhai was still in international waters for that.

Regardless, Russia's original ultimatum is the overriding issue here, regardless of the dickering about rules and laws. Russia gave China an ultimatum that sending ships past the Bering Strait constituted a threat to Russian interests. China is pushing the matter. The Russians on Diomede Island therefore will fire on the Zhuhai whenever the ship tries to pass the Strait, regardless of what conventions or international channels or transit passage rights we happen to set up to cover this specific instance.

It looks like we had some misunderstandings here. So for clarification:

a) If the Russian Federation guarantee and support the principles of transit passage, as written in the "Convention on the Law of the Sea" (Part III, Section 2: Transit Passage, Article 37 and the followings), thats absolut okay for me.

b) I have no problems with the "Zhuhai"-Event (even if the ship perhaps will be sunk at the end)

c) According to "b)" it doesn't matter if the ship is now in territorial waters, following the principles of transit passage or is in international waters and the battery on the Diomedes Islands had a greater range.

Quoted from "Brockpaine"

Regardless, Russia's original ultimatum is the overriding issue here, regardless of the dickering about rules and laws. Russia gave China an ultimatum that sending ships past the Bering Strait constituted a threat to Russian interests. China is pushing the matter. The Russians on Diomede Island therefore will fire on the Zhuhai whenever the ship tries to pass the Strait, regardless of what conventions or international channels or transit passage rights we happen to set up to cover this specific instance.

Further addendum:
Another possibility comes to mind for the Bering Strait case, which might have been part of any 1921-era discussion with the US. Given the position of Little Diomede Island (which is US territory) only just a bit ot the east of Big Diomede Island (Russian territory), the Russians would probably draw their own border line as if the US had also claimed a 12nm sea limit. That means that even though passing through the western half of the strait is possible on the ideal of transit rights, the Zhuhai could also go on the eastern side of the strait, utilizing waters which the US hasn't claimed (yet).

I think the dividing line between the two islands might very well be the international date line (which for ease of use, would probably be preferred). Thus, Russia wouldn't claim any waters east of the IDL, even if the US hasn't claimed as much as the Russians have. That, along with the statement of transit passage, would cover anything with regards to the strait.

Quoted

As for the general adoption of a 12 mile limit, for all player nations, I am opposed.

I think it is more fun without a general adoption as that would create a source of friction between nations that stick to the old rules of the Territorial waters and those nations who believe that the old rules are outdated with the vast improvement of naval artillery.

Quoted

In general I have no problem with the 12 miles zone which are claimed by Russia (no matter 1921 or later), but here in this case i have a problem !

The thing is that I know of the Russian 12 nm zone because you mentioned it on the SATSUMA board and that you asked the Russian player about it and as far as I know, the Chinese made the 12nm claim because Russia had done so back in 1921 (all further information of the SATSUMA board regarding this matter is classified and shall not be mentioned)... so to be honest you should know about that and could have avoided it (unless the script demanded it that the ship would enter Russian Territorial waters).

Quoted

If Russia declares the 12 miles zone, a crossing of the Bering Strait for other ships is only possible if they violate russian territorial waters. This is NOT acceptable ! That would be just as if Macao or Hong Kong is surrounded by chinese territorial waters, here I MUST also introduce an international corridor so that the ships can pass. For that reason and because we have here the same issue, this also MUST be guaranteed and done. In this case, around the Diomedes Islands and on the opposite mainland only a 3 miles zone can be built. Thus, a narrow strip of international waters is possible. Only this is acceptable to me - spoken as player and not as China. Same rights and duties for all players.

To be honest, to me that is kinda like comparing apples with oranges. If you do that with Macao and Hong Kong, they would be cut off from Iberia and the UK respectively. China does not have any possessions beyond the Bering Strait so nothing would be cut off from China with the Russians doing that. To Japan, there is nothing really important to the North, except lots of Ice and would disagree that a narrow strip of international waters would be necessary on either side of the Diomedes Islands (though one might exist to the east, depending on the US claims). To me there is a big difference from blocking access and being denied the opportunity to research and blocking access and starving the citizens of two cities to death.

Quoted

Regardless, Russia's original ultimatum is the overriding issue here, regardless of the dickering about rules and laws. Russia gave China an ultimatum that sending ships past the Bering Strait constituted a threat to Russian interests. China is pushing the matter. The Russians on Diomede Island therefore will fire on the Zhuhai whenever the ship tries to pass the Strait, regardless of what conventions or international channels or transit passage rights we happen to set up to cover this specific instance.

To me if the Chinese were continuing to go north on the Russian side, then the Russians are well within their right to open fire after that ultimatum. However, after the Ultimatum, the Chinese were moving to pass on the American side. I am not sure that the Americans would appreciate it that the Russians are firing shells into their area whether they are still using the 3 mile limit for territorial waters or 12nm limit. If they also use the 12nm limit, they may not like it that the Zhuhai is moving into their territorial waters, but they might like it even less that the Russians are attacking a ship inside US territorial waters. An act like that by the Russians against the Chinese will drag the US into it as well...

... Quick! Someone order more popcorn!!!!

Quoted

a) If the Russian Federation guarantee and support the principles of transit passage, as written in the "Convention on the Law of the Sea" (Part III, Section 2: Transit Passage, Article 37 and the followings), thats absolut okay for me.

Reading article 38, that would actually depend on the US territorial waters claim. If they actually still claim only 3 miles as their limit, then transit passage does not apply to the Russian part of the Bering Strait because you would have a clear passage to the east of the Diomede Islands to get to the north.