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1

Thursday, August 31st 2017, 8:55pm

French Ships for 1948

I don't really have a good writeup for the French Navy's plans for 1948, because a lot of stuff is just continued construction on standing projects.

However, there is some new stuff that we can go over.

- 12x Aconit class Minesweepers
- 12x Canard class Light Minesweepers
- 4x light tankers
- 1-2x Criquet class netlayers
- Unknown number of cargo support ships
- Unknown number of Aigrette class harbor tugs
- 1x experimental submarine
- 4x more coastal submarines to show the Belgians how to do it / replace antique subs
- 1x antisubmarine cruiser

2

Thursday, August 31st 2017, 9:07pm

Although I'm only going to lay down one of these in 1948, I don't entirely view it as an experimental ship. I might change my mind and lay down a second one in 1948 or 1949.

The theory is to build, on a hull roughly intermediate between a cruiser and a destroyer, a vessel designed to use the many modern weapons and sensors available to hunt modern submarines. In an ideal situation, the ship would operate with a pair of escortier rapides, serving as a command ship.

Quoted

Poursuivante-class, French Croiseur anti-sous-marin laid down 1948

Displacement:
4,575 t light; 4,807 t standard; 5,631 t normal; 6,290 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
546.13 ft / 524.93 ft x 52.49 ft x 15.75 ft (normal load)
166.46 m / 160.00 m x 16.00 m x 4.80 m

Armament:
4 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns (2x2 guns), 79.37lbs / 36.00kg shells, 1948 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
4 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 1948 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline, all aft, 1 raised mount - superfiring
4 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 5.65lbs / 2.56kg shells, 1948 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side ends, all aft, all raised mounts
4 - 0.91" / 23.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.37lbs / 0.17kg shells, 1948 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 368 lbs / 167 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 550
6 - 21.7" / 550 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.18" / 30 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 0.79" / 20 mm
2nd: 0.59" / 15 mm 0.20" / 5 mm 0.20" / 5 mm
3rd: 0.59" / 15 mm 0.20" / 5 mm 0.20" / 5 mm

- Conning tower: 0.79" / 20 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 66,738 shp / 49,787 Kw = 34.00 kts
Range 7,500nm at 18.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,484 tons

Complement:
324 - 422

Cost:
£3.191 million / $12.765 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 47 tons, 0.8 %
Armour: 22 tons, 0.4 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 17 tons, 0.3 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 5 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 1,631 tons, 29.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,499 tons, 44.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,056 tons, 18.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 375 tons, 6.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
7,106 lbs / 3,223 Kg = 106.0 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 1.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
Metacentric height 2.5 ft / 0.8 m
Roll period: 13.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.20
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.20

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.454
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.30 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 35.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 25.59 ft / 7.80 m
- Forecastle (25 %): 24.61 ft / 7.50 m
- Mid (60 %): 23.62 ft / 7.20 m (13.12 ft / 4.00 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Stern: 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Average freeboard: 19.94 ft / 6.08 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 109.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 176.9 %
Waterplane Area: 18,323 Square feet or 1,702 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 139 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 81 lbs/sq ft or 398 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.98
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Breakdown of Miscellaneous Weights:
- 90 tons for electronics
- 15 tons for degaussing cables
- 35 tons for HVAC
- 15 tons for two LRASM Modele 1947 2x4 32cm launchers and reloads
- 220 tons for other stuff - possibly a helicopter pad (no hanger) included in the mix

Electronics:
Data not yet available

Ships in Class:
- Poursuivante: Laid down January 1948 in La Rochelle, completed February 1949.

3

Thursday, August 31st 2017, 9:11pm

Quoted

Maxime Laubeuf class Submarine
Date: 1948
Type: Coastal
Length: 55.0m
Beam: 4.9m
Draft: 5.0m
Crush depth: 225m
Light Displacement 420t
Loaded Displacement 567t
Full Displacement 674t
wt fuel&batts: 135t
Reserve buoyancy: 16%

Armament:
- 4 x 550mm torpedo tubes (all bow tubes, 2 reloads per tube @ 2t each)
DieselHP: 900hp
H2O2HP: 6,800hp
Speed:
- Max Surf Speed: 12.2 knots
- Max Sub Speed: 23.1 knots
Range:
- Surfaced: 4000nm@10 knots
- Submerged: 1272nm@10 knots / 3535nm@6 knots
Tons Oil: 40.0t
Tons H2O2: 95.0t
Miscellaneous Weight: 32 tons
- 4 tons for snort
- 8 tons for electronics
- 20 tons for other

Electronics:
- 2 tons for DRBV-6C surface and air search radar
- 1 ton for ARBR-1L radar warning receiver
- 2 tons for primary G-15 active hydrophone
- 3 tons for two G-13 passive hydrophones

Crew: 29

Units in Class:
- Maxime Laubeuf (S278): laid down 1948.

Notes:
The Maxime Laubeuf was an experimental submarine built in 1948 as part of Project Borée, a joint project by the French Marine Nationale and the Russian Federation Navy to develop an air-independent submarine propulsion system. The Maxime Laubeuf, often better-known by the nickname "Max Rapide" (Max Quick) was a highly modified variant of the earlier hydrogen peroxide-powered Gymnote. Although built as a fully-capable military submarine, the "Max" was intended to be a half-scale testbed for a 1950 production design, powered by a nuclear reactor.

The Marine Nationale had originally wanted to try the Russian REDO closed-cycle stirling diesel engine (tested on the Russian M-401 experimental submarine) rather than resorting back to H2O2; but a workable design could not be assembled according to the project timetable. As a result, the "Max" had a modified version of the Gymnote's H2O2 engines, which benefitted from many of the lessons learned from the fire-prone Gymnote. In spite of the improvements, fires were semi-regular occurances, leading to the final abandonment of the H2O2 design program.

The Maxime Laubeuf's greatest contributions came with regard to her Lyon shape hullform, which adapted lessons learned from aerodynamics. DCNS had also learned many lessons during construction of the Emeraude-class regarding improved underwater streamlining and performance, as well as the design of control surfaces. The hullform had previously been used in a crude form on the Gymnote, although the earlier submarine had not benefitted from the same degree of streamlining, or the elimination of external fittings and fixtures. It was this experience which proved most valuable for Project Borée, eventually bearing fruit with the design of the first French nuclear submarines, Revolutionnaire.

In 1953, the French Navy retired the submarine following a second major fire. The boat, which was returning from a training cruise to Algiers, caught fire while waiting for a tug. The boat took on water through the open aft hatch and sank in sixteen meters of water, less than a hundred meters from her home pier. Fifteen men abandoned ship prior to her sinking, while the remaining fourteen men, gathered in the forward compartment, were rescued less than an hour later by diving bell. Divers closed the aft hatch and pumped high-pressure air into the boat to raise it. Due to the damage to the H2O2 engine system and a disinterest in continuing experiments with hydrogen peroxide, the "Max" was not deemed economical to repair.

Accident History:
- June 12, 1948: minor fire started by the H2O2 system during sea trials. No casualties or damage.
- June 19, 1948: minor fire started by the H2O2 system during sea trials. No significant damage; one man treated for inhalation of fumes.
- July 30, 1948: minor fire started by the H2O2 system while at sea. No casualties or damage; cruise continued without interruption.
- November 5, 1948: minor fire started by the H2O2 system while in port. No casualties or damage.
- March 13, 1949: major fire started by the H2O2 system. Three dead, fourteen injured. Boat briefly abandoned at sea before being towed to Mers-el-Kebir then returned to France for repairs.
- April 4, 1949: while finishing repairs following fire, a crane knocks over material onto the submarine, damaging the snort, periscope and radar mast, and causing an impact which starts a minor electrical fire in the captain's cabin. No casualties; minor damage.
- July 13, 1949: entangled in a lost fishing trawl. Screw jammed, boat towed back to port.
- May 19, 1950: minor fire started by the H2O2 system while at sea. No casualties or damage; cruise terminated.
- November 16, 1950: minor fire started by the H2O2 system. No significant damage; three men treated for inhalation of fumes.
- December 18, 1950: while leaving port, submarine rammed by civilian motorboat (security violation). Motorboat sunk and two civilians arrested. No damage to the submarine.
- March 9, 1951: minor fire started by the H2O2 system. No significant damage; one man treated for inhalation of fumes.
- August 18, 1952: minor fire started by the H2O2 system while at sea. No casualties or damage; cruise continued without interruption.
- April 11, 1953: major fire started by the H2O2 system while in port of Toulon. Eighteen men treated for inhalation of fumes. Boat sinks in port in sixteen meters of water.

4

Thursday, August 31st 2017, 9:16pm

And now to the important stuff.

The last minesweepers built for the French Navy were the destroyer-like "aviso-drageurs" of the Arabe-class. These minesweepers are a much more conservative design, with wood hulls, limited armament, and simplicity written all over them.

Quoted

Aconit-class, French Minesweeper laid down 1948

Displacement:
350 t light; 362 t standard; 482 t normal; 578 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
161.26 ft / 157.48 ft x 26.25 ft x 7.87 ft (normal load)
49.15 m / 48.00 m x 8.00 m x 2.40 m

Armament:
1 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns in single mounts, 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 1942 Model
Anti-aircraft gun in deck mount
on centreline forward
1 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1934 Model
Machine gun in deck mount
on centreline aft
Weight of broadside 7 lbs / 3 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 550

Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion motors,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 945 shp / 705 Kw = 15.00 kts
Range 6,500nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 217 tons

Complement:
50 - 66

Cost:
£0.120 million / $0.480 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 23 tons, 4.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 256 tons, 53.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 132 tons, 27.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 70 tons, 14.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,834 lbs / 832 Kg = 324.5 x 2.2 " / 57 mm shells or 1.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 0.8 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 12.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 72 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.01
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.53

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.518
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 14.94 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 47
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 14.11 ft / 4.30 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 13.78 ft / 4.20 m
- Mid (40 %): 13.45 ft / 4.10 m (6.23 ft / 1.90 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 6.23 ft / 1.90 m
- Stern: 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
- Average freeboard: 9.27 ft / 2.83 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 34.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 94.4 %
Waterplane Area: 2,914 Square feet or 271 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 395 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 56 lbs/sq ft or 273 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.57
- Longitudinal: 5.70
- Overall: 1.79
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Ships in Class:
- Aconit
- Alysse
- Lobelia
- Mimose
- Renoncule
- Roselys
- Ciguë
- Agave
- Cèdre
- Chène
- Erable
- Frêne
- Hètre
- Orme
- Peuplier
- Platane

5

Thursday, August 31st 2017, 9:18pm

And here's another minesweeper, half the size of the Aconit, designed to operate in coastal regions and waterways.

Quoted

Canard-class, French Coastal Minesweeper laid down 1948

Displacement:
175 t light; 180 t standard; 207 t normal; 229 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
131.82 ft / 127.95 ft x 21.65 ft x 4.76 ft (normal load)
40.18 m / 39.00 m x 6.60 m x 1.45 m

Armament:
1 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1938 Model
Anti-aircraft gun in deck mount
on centreline forward
2 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1948 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 2 lbs / 1 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 750

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.59" / 15 mm - -
2nd: 0.20" / 5 mm - -

- Conning tower: 0.59" / 15 mm

Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion motors,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 762 shp / 569 Kw = 15.00 kts
Range 3,500nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 49 tons

Complement:
26 - 35

Cost:
£0.067 million / $0.267 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 0 tons, 0.1 %
Armour: 1 tons, 0.3 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 0 tons, 0.1 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 19 tons, 9.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 105 tons, 50.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 32 tons, 15.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 24.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
516 lbs / 234 Kg = 264.3 x 1.6 " / 40 mm shells or 0.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 0.6 ft / 0.2 m
Roll period: 11.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 53 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.01
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.27

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
Block coefficient: 0.550
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.91 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 11.31 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 61 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 42
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 14.44 ft / 4.40 m
- Forecastle (25 %): 13.78 ft / 4.20 m (6.56 ft / 2.00 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
- Stern: 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
- Average freeboard: 8.43 ft / 2.57 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 57.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 92.9 %
Waterplane Area: 1,934 Square feet or 180 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 230 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 34 lbs/sq ft or 164 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.24
- Longitudinal: 5.63
- Overall: 1.44
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Ships in Class:
- Canard
- Colombe
- Coq
- Faisan
- Gelinotte
- Heron
- Pigeon
- Pintade
- Pluvier
- Perdreau
- Ramier
- Tourterelle
- Grèbe
- Héron
- Pingouin
- Vanneau

6

Thursday, August 31st 2017, 9:20pm

EVEN MORE IMPORTANT SHIPS! I mean boats. These are more like boats... but IMPORTANT! If it weren't for these ships, the Navy would be stuck in port trying to get out.

Quoted

Aigrette-class Harbour Tug
Displacement: 55 tonnes (light), 65 tonnes (normal)
Length: 18.4 m overall
Beam: 5.7 m
Draught: 2.5 m full load
Machinery: 1 8-cylinder Poyaud marine diesel engine of 250 CV; one screw
Speed: 9 knots (full load)
Cruising range: 1700nm at 9 knots
Crew: 4 men
Armament:
- 1 x water cannon

7

Thursday, August 31st 2017, 9:22pm

Based on a real class of ships laid down postwar. (I think they even had the same names.)

Quoted

Criquet-class, French Netlayer laid down 1948

Displacement::
582 t light; 597 t standard; 756 t normal; 883 t full load

Dimensions:: Length overall / water x beam x draught
174.67 ft / 165.52 ft x 29.53 ft x 9.84 ft (normal load)
53.24 m / 50.45 m x 9.00 m x 3.00 m

Armament::
1 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1938 Model
Anti-aircraft gun in deck mount
on centreline aft, 1 raised gun
4 - 0.52" / 13.2 mm guns in single mounts, 0.07lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1948 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 2 lbs / 1 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Machinery::
Diesel Internal combustion motors,
Geared drive, 1 shaft, 621 shp / 463 Kw = 12.00 kts
Range 10,400nm at 12.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 286 tons

Complement::
71 - 93

Cost::
£0.169 million / $0.677 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement::
Armament: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 15 tons, 2.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 446 tons, 59.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 174 tons, 23.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 120 tons, 15.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability::
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
3,181 lbs / 1,443 Kg = 1,628.9 x 1.6 " / 40 mm shells or 2.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.20
Metacentric height 1.1 ft / 0.3 m
Roll period: 11.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.86

Hull form characteristics::
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.550
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.61 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 12.87 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 38
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 10.17 ft / 3.10 m
- Forecastle (25 %): 8.86 ft / 2.70 m
- Mid (50 %): 7.55 ft / 2.30 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 7.55 ft / 2.30 m
- Stern: 8.86 ft / 2.70 m
- Average freeboard: 8.27 ft / 2.52 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments::
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 25.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 69.4 %
Waterplane Area: 3,308 Square feet or 307 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 495 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 87 lbs/sq ft or 424 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 2.26
- Longitudinal: 6.01
- Overall: 2.49
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Ships in Class:
- Cigale
- Criquet
- Fourmi
- Grillon
- Scarabee

8

Thursday, August 31st 2017, 9:24pm

And a final design to throw out there.

Quoted

Cybèle class Submarine
Date: 1948
Type: Coastal
Length: 45.0m
Beam: 4.6m
Draft: 4.2m
Crush depth: 225m
Light Displacement 365t
Loaded Displacement 375t
Full Displacement 435t
wt fuel&batts: 70t
Reserve buoyancy: 14%

Armament:
- 8 x 550mm torpedo tubes (all bow tubes, no reloads)
ElecHP: 1800hp
DieselHP: 450hp
Speed:
- Max Surf Speed: 10.5 knots
- Max Sub Speed: 16.4 knots
Range:
- Surfaced: 3523nm@6 knots
- Submerged: 296nm@4 knots / 28nm@10 knots
Tons Oil: 10.0t
Tons Battery: 60.0t
Miscellaneous Weight: 13 tons
- 2 tons for snort
- 8 tons for electronics
- 3 tons for other

Electronics:
- 2 tons for DRBV-6C surface and air search radar
- 1 ton for ARBR-1L radar warning receiver
- 2 tons for primary G-15 active hydrophone
- 3 tons for two G-13 passive hydrophones

Crew: 19

Notes:
The Cybèle class was originally designed by DCNS in 1947 and 1948 as part of a proposal for a small, compact coastal submarine for service on the North, Baltic or Black Seas, with Latvia, Belgium, Poland, or Denmark identified as potential customers. DCNS adapted many of the lessons they had learned from earlier submarine projects to produce their design proposal.

9

Friday, September 1st 2017, 12:46am

You’ve offered a lot for consideration. I will try and be concise.

I am not entirely convinced on the Poursuivante-class. It sounds like the US Norfolk class, which ended up being too big and expensive for A/S work. The helicopter facilities, however, could change that. The Canadians have been playing around with hangars on some of their ships that building one on the Poursuivante would not be impossible. Still, the apparent A/S outfit seems small in comparison to the ship’s displacement.

You’ve sort of given the game away on the Maxime Laubeuf with its history. Not all experiments are shining successes, and you are simming such. I am certain that the DCNS will learn much from the program.

The Aconit-class and the Canard-class seem somewhat confusing and duplicative. Size-wise, the Canard makes sense for an inshore minehunter for keeping the ports open. The Aconit-class however strikes me as too small for oceanic employment, even in the Mediterranean. With only 70 tons of m/s gear the Aconit would be rather hard pressed to deal with the variety of mines that would be available by the late 1940s. I would think something larger, like the historical Tripartite class, might make better sense, and perhaps have an equal success at export.

The Aigrette-class is a no-brainer. Looks good.

The Criquet-class works for me too. Smaller auxiliaries and harbor craft are too overlooked in Wesworld.

The Cybèle class boats are interesting; short-legged perhaps but I like their sprint capabilities. The design ought to be good for coast defense in restricted waters against surface targets.

10

Friday, September 1st 2017, 2:24am

I am not entirely convinced on the Poursuivante-class. It sounds like the US Norfolk class, which ended up being too big and expensive for A/S work. The helicopter facilities, however, could change that. The Canadians have been playing around with hangars on some of their ships that building one on the Poursuivante would not be impossible. Still, the apparent A/S outfit seems small in comparison to the ship’s displacement.

I'm going back and forth about whether or not I want to put a helicopter hanger on it. France has some fairly decent helicopters, but I'm a bit reluctant to apply hindsight to the design. Still, this ship is large enough to reasonably operate 1-2 helicopters, and so I might be willing to go for it.

The Aconit-class and the Canard-class seem somewhat confusing and duplicative. Size-wise, the Canard makes sense for an inshore minehunter for keeping the ports open. The Aconit-class however strikes me as too small for oceanic employment, even in the Mediterranean. With only 70 tons of m/s gear the Aconit would be rather hard pressed to deal with the variety of mines that would be available by the late 1940s. I would think something larger, like the historical Tripartite class, might make better sense, and perhaps have an equal success at export.

I'd actually based the Aconit design on the British Ton class, which proved pretty long-lived - and seaworthy enough to serve as oceanic patrol ships for the Irish Naval Service.

I went back and looked at the drageurs that the French Navy actually built and acquired during the 1950s (1940s were a bit of a wash). They did pick up seventeen British-built Ham-class minesweepers (roughly analogous to the Canard-class, albeit smaller and flush-decked), but also fifteen "dragueur de mines océaniques", which appear to be called the Narvik-class, which served as the immediate predecessors of the Tripartite-class minehunters. I went ahead and made a quick sim of that design, since it doesn't require any of the 1960s/70s technology of the Tripartites. (Tripartite was a minehunter in any case.) Only real difference between this and Narvik is that I've used the 57mm gun rather than the 40mm used on Narvik.

Quoted

Aconit-class, French Minesweeper laid down 1948

Displacement:
715 t light; 736 t standard; 938 t normal; 1,100 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
177.84 ft / 173.88 ft x 35.10 ft x 10.50 ft (normal load)
54.21 m / 53.00 m x 10.70 m x 3.20 m

Armament:
1 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns in single mounts, 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 1942 Model
Anti-aircraft gun in deck mount
on centreline forward
1 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1934 Model
Machine gun in deck mount
on centreline aft
Weight of broadside 7 lbs / 3 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 550

Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion motors,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 1,372 shp / 1,023 Kw = 15.00 kts
Range 7,500nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 364 tons

Complement:
84 - 110

Cost:
£0.226 million / $0.904 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 34 tons, 3.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 530 tons, 56.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 223 tons, 23.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 16.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
4,395 lbs / 1,994 Kg = 777.8 x 2.2 " / 57 mm shells or 2.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
Metacentric height 1.3 ft / 0.4 m
Roll period: 12.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 75 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.01
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.88

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has low quarterdeck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.512
Length to Beam Ratio: 4.95 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 16.03 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 40
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 14.11 ft / 4.30 m
- Mid (40 %): 13.45 ft / 4.10 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 6.23 ft / 1.90 m (13.45 ft / 4.10 m before break)
- Stern: 6.23 ft / 1.90 m
- Average freeboard: 12.62 ft / 3.85 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 31.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 131.5 %
Waterplane Area: 4,278 Square feet or 397 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 421 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 78 lbs/sq ft or 381 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.58
- Longitudinal: 9.24
- Overall: 1.89
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

11

Friday, September 1st 2017, 2:51am

Looking at the revised Aconit-class sim, it appears to be a much more weatherly design - I suspect that the armament could be beefed up if desired without too much sacrifice. Given France's colonial interests in distant waters I think it and a mix of Canards would be very effective into the early 1950s. The new design should be capable of carrying the gear necessary to deal with magnetic, pressure, and contact mines.

12

Friday, September 1st 2017, 11:58am

I agree with Bruce that Poursuivante looks wasteful, the ASW armament isn't stunning but I guess as an escort flagship packed with sonars and perhaps some enhanced aerial search radars and dedicated air and sub CICs then it might make more sense. A light chopper on the tail shouldn't be too hard when something reliable comes along. You need the right chopper and systems, right now you can't lug a sonar and torpedo and having one or the other is a pain without reliable radio links and control from ship and that's not as easy as it sounds. A hangar would seem a bit ahead of the OTL curve but providing a pad would be logical I guess if that's the way your heading.
Are the torpedo tubes on this design centreline or beam banks?

Le Exploder looks ok to me, I've never been tempted to play around with such novel powerplants so far.
The Cybèle class does look good, will Belgium ever buy any or do something else crazy? Who knows? I have the tonnage but is there the willpower to take on something new like this, especially since the gyroplane carrier is now a green light to go.

You also reminded me, as did watching a programme about Scapa Flow the other night, that I've never built any netlayers for the RN, partly because I thought they were too small and could easily convert some merchants/ fishing boats. I must rectify that.

13

Friday, September 1st 2017, 4:18pm

I agree with Bruce that Poursuivante looks wasteful, the ASW armament isn't stunning but I guess as an escort flagship packed with sonars and perhaps some enhanced aerial search radars and dedicated air and sub CICs then it might make more sense. A light chopper on the tail shouldn't be too hard when something reliable comes along. You need the right chopper and systems, right now you can't lug a sonar and torpedo and having one or the other is a pain without reliable radio links and control from ship and that's not as easy as it sounds. A hangar would seem a bit ahead of the OTL curve but providing a pad would be logical I guess if that's the way your heading.
Are the torpedo tubes on this design centreline or beam banks?

One triple launcher on each beam. As with the preceding escortiers d'escadre (Forbin-class destroyers), they're set up to fire acoustic antisubmarine torpedoes rather than the standard oxygen-propelled 42G antiship torpedoes.

I'll think over the design a bit more. I'm not going to cancel the ship, but I might give some thought to whether or not I can improve the utility of the ship. I tended to design it more like Bruce does his ships - going light on armament in favor of high seakeeping - so in some ways the ship's design is a bit of an aberration for my design preferences.

14

Saturday, September 2nd 2017, 7:43pm

When it comes to ASW armament, what does Poursuivante have?

There is (I assume) the LRASM Modele 1947 (though no idea what it would be like) and there are the acoustic antisubmarine torpedoes... what else? I would add depth charges to it as well just in case the ships happens to end up close or right above the enemy submarine.

Looking at Japan's Ashida class (which is more cruiser-sized than something intermediate between a cruiser and a destroyer like the Poursuivante is), besides the 4x3 torpedo tubes, it has two Ika ASW mortars, 4 DC projectors, 16 DC throwers an a pair of DC chutes in the stern (as there is no space for DC rails on the quarterdeck, I imagine it being handled right below the quarterdeck).

I had been thinking about putting a helicopter on the Ashida class during the design process, but deemed the design to be too small to be able to handle one unless it is something small like a Fl 282 and even if it was big enough, the amount of stuff on the ship would probably prevent one from operating from it. The Kikuchi class preceding the Ashida has miscellaneous tonnage for a seaplane, crane and catapult and, even though no one ever mentioned anything about it, I have my doubts that those things would fit on the ship with the other stuff (unless I put them on the forecastle).

15

Monday, September 11th 2017, 4:56pm

Update:
- I am still fiddling with the design of the Poursuivante. I've made the design smaller, and I've been experimenting with making a small air-defense cruiser out of it instead.
- Discovered an error in the Cybèle submarine design; I transposed the horsepower of the diesel and electric motors. I fixed it in the post above.

I've also put together a parallel design to the Cybèle - slightly larger, with fewer torpedo tubes, but more reloads and just generally a bit extra capacity. This boat is designed more with Mediterranean operations in mind, whereas the Cybèle is for even more constricted waters. Might also be a good first submarine for Indochina.

Quoted

SMC 49m class Submarine
Date: 1948
Type: Coastal
Length: 45.0m
Beam: 5.4m
Draft: 4.2m
Crush depth: 225m
Light Displacement 450t
Loaded Displacement 486t
Full Displacement 556t
wt fuel&batts: 101t
Reserve buoyancy: 12%

Armament:
- 4 x 550mm torpedo tubes (all bow tubes, 16t for mines or torpedo reloads)
ElecHP: 2550hp
DieselHP: 950hp
Speed:
- Max Surf Speed: 12.7 knots
- Max Sub Speed: 17.4 knots
Range:
- Surfaced: 3376nm@8 knots
- Submerged: 342nm@4 knots / 66nm@8 knots
Tons Oil: 20.0t
Tons Battery: 81.0t
Miscellaneous Weight: 19 tons
- 2 tons for snort
- 8 tons for electronics
- 9 tons for other

Electronics:
- 2 tons for DRBV-6C surface and air search radar
- 1 ton for ARBR-1L radar warning receiver
- 2 tons for primary G-15 active hydrophone
- 3 tons for two G-13 passive hydrophones

Crew: 24

16

Monday, September 11th 2017, 5:31pm

I'd be interesting in seeing your AA cruiser version of Poursuivante as I've been mulling over some new AA cruisers too, but the final result is quite large though I have worked in a degree of dual-purpose too.
I've tinkered with a similar concept to Poursuivante by making my cruiser-destroyer more of an ASW platform but the results didn't seem worth it. It just seems wasteful to have too much hull, although I've found that minimum length for a decent ASW design is actually quite large compared to earlier sloops and other escorts.

17

Tuesday, September 12th 2017, 2:09am

I'd be interesting in seeing your AA cruiser version of Poursuivante as I've been mulling over some new AA cruisers too, but the final result is quite large though I have worked in a degree of dual-purpose too.

Well, here's one of the designs I've currently got in hand. As with the preceding design, we've got a highly enlarged destroyer hull, lacking an armoured belt or deck.

Quoted

Poursuivante B2, French Escorteur d'escadre laid down 1948

Displacement:
3,850 t light; 4,209 t standard; 4,972 t normal; 5,583 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
501.08 ft / 492.13 ft x 49.54 ft x 15.75 ft (normal load)
152.73 m / 150.00 m x 15.10 m x 4.80 m

Armament:
8 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns (4x2 guns), 79.37lbs / 36.00kg shells, 1948 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 6.61lbs / 3.00kg shells, 1948 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships
8 - 0.91" / 23.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.37lbs / 0.17kg shells, 1948 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 691 lbs / 313 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 650
6 - 21.7" / 550 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.18" / 30 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 0.79" / 20 mm
2nd: 0.59" / 15 mm 0.20" / 5 mm 0.20" / 5 mm
3rd: 0.59" / 15 mm - -

- Conning tower: 1.97" / 50 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines plus diesel motors,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 63,346 shp / 47,256 Kw = 34.00 kts
Range 7,500nm at 18.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,374 tons

Complement:
295 - 384

Cost:
£3.169 million / $12.675 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 88 tons, 1.8 %
Armour: 43 tons, 0.9 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 31 tons, 0.6 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 12 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 1,548 tons, 31.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,786 tons, 35.9 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,122 tons, 22.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 385 tons, 7.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
3,471 lbs / 1,574 Kg = 51.8 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 0.8 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
Metacentric height 2.3 ft / 0.7 m
Roll period: 13.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.45
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.19

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak, raised quarterdeck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.453
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.93 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.48 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24.61 ft / 7.50 m
- Forecastle (25 %): 23.79 ft / 7.25 m
- Mid (50 %): 22.97 ft / 7.00 m (15.75 ft / 4.80 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 15.75 ft / 4.80 m (15.42 ft / 4.70 m before break)
- Stern: 15.75 ft / 4.80 m
- Average freeboard: 19.69 ft / 6.00 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 127.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 161.4 %
Waterplane Area: 16,199 Square feet or 1,505 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 118 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 63 lbs/sq ft or 308 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.69
- Longitudinal: 1.80
- Overall: 0.76
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Breakdown of Miscellaneous Weight:
Not yet available. Includes:
- 80 tons for electronics
- 15 tons for two LRASM Modele 1947 2x4 32cm launchers and reloads
- 50 tons for AAW command center
- 30 tons for HVAC