WesWorld

IC:

China accept the 12-miles zone territorial waters, because it has itself proclaimed a 12-miles zone territorial water at 30th June 1940.

BUT

China won't accept any other proclaimed zone, neither the Contiguous Zone nor the Economic Control Zone. For China all waters outside the 12-miles zone are INTERNATIONAL WATERS.

That means for China

Any attempts to harass, stop or board a chinese ship for investigation in these international waters (see above) are at the perpetrator's own risk and will be regarded as a criminal act.




OOC:

Quoted

Seems a big (underwater) land grab to me.
Yes, I know. At 250nm wide, it is a lot more than the OTL 200nm. I can't remember why I did that though. Maybe because I like 4x25 and added a 0 after 25.

Quoted

If everyone gets the same privileges then maybe I'd back this. Everyone local has free access so that's good but Japan is making a profit on all this.

In what way is this profitable to Japan? I can tell you that in the beginning a permit was required and Japan would be getting money from that. Then it changed to something that is more a proof of registration that was free and finally I removed it. For example, a Filipino fishing vessel that goes into Japan's ECZ will get its fish and head back to the Philippines to sell its catch there. So how is Japan making a profit from that? Sure Japan will get a profit when it catches the fish and sells it to Chilean or South African markets, but Japan gets nothing if another East or Southeast Asian nation gets that fish. All profits are for that nation.

Quoted

Denying trade, one could argue who looses more? Japan or the banned nation?

You mentioning this makes me think that you consider everything within the limits of the Economic Control Zone to be included, including land. I'm looking at that zone as existing between 42nm and 292nm from Japan's coast line. Ports do not fall under that zone (or at least that is not the intention).
So the only nation being denied trade is the banned nation as it cannot get to the economic resources themselves and sell it on. As mentioned above, Japan gains nothing from another nation getting economic resources from the Economic Control Zone.

So at one point the text says Japan owns all economic resources within the economic zone then willingly gives all local and non-locals access to take as much as they want whenever they want and Japan gets no slice of the action at all. So why have an economic zone at all? Looks like business as usual to me. Fishing vessels legally getting what they want from international waters.
I must admit I was thinking in more modern terms of seabed resources and extraction in my first responses rather than just fishing (which is probably the only economic resource at the present time - and one that moves!).
Even if you were thinking of oil and gas etc. then do these claims cover just the sea, the seabed and how far down into the crust? These are probably very tangential issues at this stage.


I'm pretty easy with a change to 12 miles for territorial waters if the playerbase agrees it for all nations.
I'm not ok with the Contiguous and Economic Zones; the former is unnecessary and the later is too ill-defined at the moment from where are in the 1940s. It is clear though that seabed resources are beginning to be exploited (Philippines and the Low Countries) so we are approaching the time when we need to make decisions about them, but the game may end in 1950 before we get to worrying too much about it. If it goes on beyond 1950 then we need to have this discussion then when that decision is made.

I can't really add anything that Brock and ShinRa haven't already stated. Its also nice to see a clarification from Bruce and I can't say I don't sympathize with him feeling singled out in this proposal. IMO the delivery could have been better, more brief and generic but instead has too much detail and to some is perceived as a personal attack, in particular stating nations already banned. To be honest I'm not comfortable with the whole "banning" issue, to me it seems silly, to others its an insult or a non issue but I'm not going to comment on it any further unless it continues to be a point of conflict OOC. I'd hope that we all make the effort to make sure it doesn't become a point of conflict and I'd like to stress that point. I'd also like to stress that unilateralism and unilaterally choosing to accept what is canon and what is not in this sim is a very slippery slope so think carefully.....

As a mod I like to see fairness for all players. If the consensus is the 3 mile limit, like it or lump it that's the law, if it were Atlantis making this proposal I'd simply shelve my idea and tweak it in the event the limit changes. The responsibility lies with the player to, IC, convince the rest of the world at the league to accept a 12 mile limit and abide by the current 3 mile limit until such time as the new limit is accepted.

IC Atlantis, Colombia and Turkey would not be opposed to examining the 12 mile limit proposal but will abide by whatever the law of the land is.

OOC, I'm not well versed in the legal side of world affairs so you'll basically have to dumb it down for me to be interested enough to consider it, I'm more into designing stuff and time permitted the role playing side of the sim via news and sabre rattling.

Before I bother nit-picking things: Is this something that's already come up in-character, or is it here for OOC discussion purposes?

Japan's declaration of the zones was already made in character at various points over the last few years, but Walter always promised more details. These are the details.

So far as I understand it, at least.

Thanks for that.

Okay, so:

-I don't particularly care whether territorial waters are 3 or 12 miles, and outside of a few places with tricky geometry where parties will have to agree on boundaries, I'm not sure why anybody else would, either. It's certainly not relevant from a coastal defence perspective given the existence of hundreds of aircraft carriers in this world.

-If Japan wants to exclude anybody's shipping from their territorial waters for even the most asinine reason, I am totally cool with that. It's their waters.

-The contiguous zone is kind of pointless, if the sole reason for it is to facilitate optional inspections-underway. Japan can have a standing offer to inspect incoming merchies without bothering with this.

-The ECZ is much more than an economic exclusion zone, given that Japan seeks to regulate shipping behavior within it. I can see that being a problem for others. And yes, control of resources does equal ownership.

-I don't see why the CZ or ECZ need to be any different in size than the historical versions, particularly if nobody can be arsed to present maps of these alternatives and the only resource being exploited in this timeframe is fish.

-Speaking generally, all the optional fluffy crap, like the reference to the orphans thing, has no place in binding legislation.