WesWorld

I would set the date of those subs to 1944 rather than 1940-44. After all, out SS sims give just one date as well. To me it just looks better that way.

On the Type 42 design, I think that the tons for the reload torpedoes is a bit odd (assuming that you use 2 tons per torpedo that is). I would add another 2 tons so you end up with 14 torpedoes (2 reloads per tube forward and 1 reload per tube aft).

And of course in my opinion these two subs are, like many other Wesworld submarines, too flat.

Any ideas for the breakdown of the miscellaneous weights of the two submarines?

The Atlantean type 8 21" torpedo weighs in at 3,000 lbs. so with enough fish for 2 per tube that's 24 tons. I'd assume the last 2 tons would be for spare electric motors/warheads or maintenance equipment, perhaps even a spare "hail Mary" torpedo. As for the misc. weight breakdown, to be honest I haven't worked it out in detail but it would include standard equipment one would find on a sub - sonar, radar, hydrophones, torpedo handling equipment and limited small arms. In the Type 43/SSF-16 a large portion would go to the floatplane hangar and equipment. As to the design being flat you'll have to talk to Brock as its his design work in subsim to my spec request but the designs have more draft than my D-22 class (15.1') and R-98 class (15.75'). The D-22 beam is also just over 2/3rds the beam on the Type 42 and Type 43, making it roughly the size of a German type VII class boat dimension's wise and tonnage wise similar to a type IX. The Type 43 would be more similar to a Gato type which only had a draft of 15 feet. There is one problem with the Type 42 design, its missing the 75mm gun and small machine guns I would be mounting on it but using springsharp 1x75mm, 2x50 cal and 4x30 cal weapons weigh in at 2 tons. Just in case I'm going to try and sim the Type 42/43 in Springsharp and see how they turn out.

Quoted

The Atlantean type 8 21" torpedo weighs in at 3,000 lbs. so with enough fish for 2 per tube that's 24 tons. I'd assume the last 2 tons would be for spare electric motors/warheads or maintenance equipment, perhaps even a spare "hail Mary" torpedo.

Okay, slightly different from what I do. Japanese 21" torpedoes come in at ~37-3800 lbs but for simplicity I just stick to 2 tons per torpedo for simplicity, assuming that some torpedo related stuff would fall under the weight of the torpedo as well.

Quoted

As for the misc. weight breakdown, to be honest I haven't worked it out in detail but it would include standard equipment one would find on a sub - sonar, radar, hydrophones, torpedo handling equipment and limited small arms.

Okay. I'm always looking at other designs for ideas for the use of miscellaneous weights as well as how much should be assigned.

Quoted

As to the design being flat you'll have to talk to Brock as its his design work in subsim to my spec request but the designs have more draft than my D-22 class (15.1') and R-98 class (15.75'). The D-22 beam is also just over 2/3rds the beam on the Type 42 and Type 43, making it roughly the size of a German type VII class boat dimension's wise and tonnage wise similar to a type IX.

Unlike what the springstyle notes say, I would think that the depth being 2/3 of beam is completely wrong. Looking at images, when dividing depth by beam, I get 0.97 for the Type VII and 0.88 for the Type IX. The I-201 is actually deeper than it is wide (at 1.21). I have looked at numerous other submarines in the past, and I only think one British WW1 design gave me something like 0.65. All others came in between 0.8 and 1 which is nowhere near the 0.6667 which is supposed to be "typical for subs of pre-nuke era" according to the notes.

Quoted

There is one problem with the Type 42 design, its missing the 75mm gun and small machine guns I would be mounting on it but using springsharp 1x75mm, 2x50 cal and 4x30 cal weapons weigh in at 2 tons.

I would think that you would only need to check the weight of the 50 cal and 30 cal since that 75mm is going to be entered in subsim.

Quoted from "Rooijen10"

Okay. I'm always looking at other designs for ideas for the use of miscellaneous weights as well as how much should be assigned.

Ironically I do that as well though I also try and keep weights consistent with certain weapons/equipment and lately I've been trying to come up with a list of misc weight objects to work towards standardizing. I'm trying to get away from the habit of designing a ship and then cramming as much misc weight as I can and THEN breaking down that misc weight into a more detailed list.

Quoted from "Rooijen10"

Unlike what the springstyle notes say, I would think that the depth being 2/3 of beam is completely wrong. Looking at images, when dividing depth by beam, I get 0.97 for the Type VII and 0.88 for the Type IX. The I-201 is actually deeper than it is wide (at 1.21). I have looked at numerous other submarines in the past, and I only think one British WW1 design gave me something like 0.65. All others came in between 0.8 and 1 which is nowhere near the 0.6667 which is supposed to be "typical for subs of pre-nuke era" according to the notes.

I'll admit I haven't looked at little design quirks like that as I tend to take the easy way out and use historical designs as a base for my own designs, so by default most of my designs would likely follow your rule of thumb. I'm sure if I used subsim and tried to design subs without using historical designs as a base I'd take note of that. Its a good think to know, something to consider in the future.

Quoted from "Rooijen10"

I would think that you would only need to check the weight of the 50 cal and 30 cal since that 75mm is going to be entered in subsim.

Indeed, but the current design does not have the 75mm gun added and a 1944 design seems a bit early to have fleet subs without a main armament. I'm not sure how much the design would change tonnage wise if rerun in subsim with the correction.

I'll throw the beam/depth stuff in a different thread to keep this one clean from any discussions regarding that...

Quoted

Ironically I do that as well though I also try and keep weights consistent with certain weapons/equipment and lately I've been trying to come up with a list of misc weight objects to work towards standardizing.

Some of the things I (will) try to stick to with the various vessels (not just submarines). Maybe it will give you some ideas to apply to your own miscellaneous weights breakdown...

- Aircraft spare parts: 4 tons per operational aircraft
- Aircraft repair shop: 3 tons per operational aircraft, 1 ton per spare aircraft
- Flightdeck integrated hydraulic catapults: 20 tons per catapult
- catapult + crane: 15 tons + 10 tons = 25 tons
- Flight operations center: 2 tons per operational aircraft
- Flight briefing room: 1 ton per operational aircraft
- Damage control and fire suppression systems: 1 ton per 100 tons light displacement
- Emergency diesel generators: 1 ton per 400 tons light displacement
- Air condition system: 1 ton per 100 tons light displacement
- Degaussing coils: 1 ton per 5 feet of length (oa)
- Electric torpedo reloading system: 3.75 tons per torpedo tube
- Ninjatousaya System/Schnorkel: 10 tons
- 20 oxygen bottles (50 l, 150 atm): 1 ton
- Torpedo tube air-powered piston ejection pumps: 2.5 tons per tube
- Desalinization gear: 5 tons
- Hydrophones: 10 tons
- Sonar: 20 tons
- Surface Search Radar: 10 tons
- Air search radar: 20 tons
- Air/surface radar: 20 tons
- Radar warning receiver: 10 tons
- 21" torpedoes: 2 tons per torpedo
- 24" torpedoes: 3 tons per torpedo
- 1x28 12cm AA rockets launcher: 6.25 tons + 1x4 25mm mount + 28 120mm torpedoes
- Ika ASW mortar + ammunition: 30 tons
- Depth charge projector: 2 tons per projector
- Depth charge thrower: 1 ton per thrower
- Depth charge chutes: 2 tons per chute
- 3x Type 2 depth charges: 1 ton
- 1x Type 1 depth charge: 1 ton
- Medical personnel: 3.5 tons per person
- Patient beds: 3.5 t per patient

Quoted

I'm trying to get away from the habit of designing a ship and then cramming as much misc weight as I can and THEN breaking down that misc weight into a more detailed list.

That sound like asking for trouble. You might find yourself with a design that has too much miscellaneous weights if you are not careful.

Quoted

Indeed, but the current design does not have the 75mm gun added and a 1944 design seems a bit early to have fleet subs without a main armament. I'm not sure how much the design would change tonnage wise if rerun in subsim with the correction.

As of the 1940 I-300 design, Japan has been moving away from that. The design of the Type 42 would indicate a more traditional WW2 submarine design rather than an I-201/Type XXI submarine design so the 75mm gun would make sense.

Messing around quickly with one of my designs, the 75mm would be 5 tons so that is what would be added to the design. You could remove those 5 tons from the miscellaneous weights to remain at the same light displacement, but since those 5 tons would be 0.2% of the submarine's light displacement, I doubt that it is worth bothering with changing that unless you plan to build +460 of these submarines.

To be honest I'm almost considering using the Springsharp file instead. Its easy enough to modify myself though it does come out more expensive the standard weight is the same. I don't think....there are any errors? only slight problem is using the sun sim stats they have a terrible dive limit compared to other Atlantean subs.....

Type 42, Atlantean fleet sub laid down 1944

Displacement:
2,199 t light; 2,251 t standard; 2,535 t normal; 2,763 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
308.40 ft / 308.40 ft x 31.50 ft x 19.03 ft (normal load)
94.00 m / 94.00 m x 9.60 m x 5.80 m

Armament:
1 - 2.95" / 74.9 mm guns in single mounts, 12.84lbs / 5.82kg shells, 1944 Model
Dual purpose gun in deck mount
on centreline forward
2 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1944 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
2 - 0.30" / 7.6 mm guns in single mounts, 0.01lbs / 0.00kg shells, 1944 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 13 lbs / 6 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
8 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Machinery:
Diesel Internal combustion generators,
Electric motors, 2 shafts, 8,752 shp / 6,529 Kw = 21.00 kts
Range 14,143nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 512 tons

Complement:
178 - 232

Cost:
£0.737 million / $2.950 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2 tons, 0.1 %
Machinery: 223 tons, 8.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,279 tons, 50.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 336 tons, 13.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 695 tons, 27.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,144 lbs / 519 Kg = 89.1 x 3.0 " / 75 mm shells or 0.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 0.95
Metacentric height 0.8 ft / 0.2 m
Roll period: 14.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 0 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.00

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.480
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.79 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 17.56 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Stern: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
- Average freeboard: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 91.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 0.0 %
Waterplane Area: 6,357 Square feet or 591 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 220 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 136 lbs/sq ft or 666 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 3.22
- Longitudinal: 1.63
- Overall: 1.94
Caution: Poor stability - excessive risk of capsizing
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is extremely poor
Ship has quick, lively roll, not a steady gun platform
Caution: Lacks seaworthiness - very limited seakeeping ability

Ballast 630 tons
65 tons misc. weight

Quoted from "thesmilingassassin"

To be honest I'm almost considering using the Springsharp file instead. Its easy enough to modify myself though it does come out more expensive the standard weight is the same. I don't think....there are any errors? only slight problem is using the sun sim stats they have a terrible dive limit compared to other Atlantean subs.....

I'm not sure what you're talking about. The subsim designs have nearly twice the diving limit of previous Atlantean submarines. For example, your Springsharp design here has a crush depth of 145 meters compared to 300 meters for the Subsim design I gave you.

Quoted from "thesmilingassassin"

Caution: Poor stability - excessive risk of capsizing

"However, if your sub has stability less than 1.0, you'll have to redesign it."

Quoted

I'm not sure what you're talking about. The subsim designs have nearly twice the diving limit of previous Atlantean submarines. For example, your Springsharp design here has a crush depth of 145 meters compared to 300 meters for the Subsim design I gave you.

I think he might have been referring to his springsharp sim because he ended up with that low overall hull strength compared to previous Atlantean subs simmed with Springsharp. Probably has to do with the high l:b ratio which causes a higher x-sectional strength and a lower longitudinal strength.

Quoted

"However, if your sub has stability less than 1.0, you'll have to redesign it."

Well that is the problem one gets when stuffing too much miscellaneous weights on a Springsharp submarine. That is also the main reason why I always divided the normal displacement by 6 to get the ballast needed because of the crappy way springsharp deals with the location of the miscellaneous weights. Dividing by 4 and then trying to add more miscellaneous weights and avoiding fss (flat submarine syndrome) is just impossible with Springsharp. That is why Subsim is better for submarines than Springsharp.

Quoted from "Rooijen10"

Quoted

I'm not sure what you're talking about. The subsim designs have nearly twice the diving limit of previous Atlantean submarines. For example, your Springsharp design here has a crush depth of 145 meters compared to 300 meters for the Subsim design I gave you.

I think he might have been referring to his springsharp sim because he ended up with that low overall hull strength compared to previous Atlantean subs simmed with Springsharp. Probably has to do with the high l:b ratio which causes a higher x-sectional strength and a lower longitudinal strength.

Yes, I noted way back that it's very difficult to sim submarines to their historical lengths using Springsharp for exactly that reason, which is why I abandoned it so quickly.

Quoted from "Brockpaine"

I'm not sure what you're talking about. The subsim designs have nearly twice the diving limit of previous Atlantean submarines. For example, your Springsharp design here has a crush depth of 145 meters compared to 300 meters for the Subsim design I gave you.

I was referring to the springsharp design not your sub sim design. Light displacement for the Type 42 in subsim is lighter compared to the springsharp equivalent while diving limit is much higher that springsharp.

Quoted from "Brockpaine"

Quoted from "thesmilingassassin"

Caution: Poor stability - excessive risk of capsizing

"However, if your sub has stability less than 1.0, you'll have to redesign it."

Yeah, its been a while since I designed a sub in Springsharp, I knew there would be at least one mistake....

Slightly modified version of the nemesis class CLAA.

Medusa, Atlantean Anti-aircraft cruiser laid down 1944

Displacement:
5,901 t light; 6,213 t standard; 6,996 t normal; 7,622 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
555.36 ft / 538.00 ft x 51.25 ft x 18.50 ft (normal load)
169.27 m / 163.98 m x 15.62 m x 5.64 m

Armament:
12 - 5.10" / 130 mm guns (6x2 guns), 66.33lbs / 30.09kg shells, 1944 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
16 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (4x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1944 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
4 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1944 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
48 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (20 mounts), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1944 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, 12 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 846 lbs / 384 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 350
10 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.15" / 80 mm 344.49 ft / 105.00 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 99 % of normal length

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1.57" / 40 mm 0.79" / 20 mm 1.57" / 40 mm

- Armour deck: 1.57" / 40 mm, Conning tower: 3.15" / 80 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 62,056 shp / 46,294 Kw = 32.25 kts
Range 9,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,409 tons

Complement:
382 - 497

Cost:
£3.480 million / $13.920 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 106 tons, 1.5 %
Armour: 1,061 tons, 15.2 %
- Belts: 443 tons, 6.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 47 tons, 0.7 %
- Armour Deck: 546 tons, 7.8 %
- Conning Tower: 25 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 1,585 tons, 22.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,029 tons, 43.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,095 tons, 15.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 120 tons, 1.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
10,273 lbs / 4,660 Kg = 154.9 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 1.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
Metacentric height 2.3 ft / 0.7 m
Roll period: 14.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.43
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.28

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.480
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.50 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 26.43 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 55
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.50 ft / 8.08 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Mid (50 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Stern: 19.00 ft / 5.79 m
- Average freeboard: 19.60 ft / 5.97 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 89.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 133.3 %
Waterplane Area: 18,756 Square feet or 1,742 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 135 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 93 lbs/sq ft or 453 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.03
- Longitudinal: 2.04
- Overall: 1.10
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Ships in class: Medusa, Minotaur, Hydra, Chimera

Improved subsim of the Type 42 class sub.....

Type 42 class fleet submarine
Date: 1942
Type: Oceanic
Length: 94.0m (308.40 ft)
Beam: 9.6m (31.50 ft)
Draft: 5.8m (19.03 ft)
Crush depth: 300m (984.25 ft)
Light Displacement: 1900t
Loaded Displacement: 2276t
Full Displacement: 2617t
Weight of fuel & batteries: 700t
Reserve buoyancy: 14%

Armament:
- 1 x 7.5cm deck gun
- 6 x 21" TT
- 26 tons for mines or reload torpedoes
ElecHP: 4800hp
DieselHP: 11500hp
Speed:
- Max Surf Speed: 21 knots
- Max Sub Speed: 10.7 knots
Range:
- Surfaced: 14143nm@10 knots
- Submerged: 67nm@6 knots / 14nm@10 knots
Tons Oil: 350.0t
Tons Battery: 350.0t
Miscellaneous Weight: 89 tons
-- 2 ton: 2x0.50cal MGs + 0.30cal MGs, mounts, and ammo
-- 87 tons all other misc weight

Crew: 90