WesWorld

Roon class Training Frigate

Intended to provide naval cadets with extended training at sea, while representing the nation abroad. Deliberately designed at the low-end of the combat spectrum so as to not provoke negative responses.

Quoted

Roon, German School Training Ship laid down 1948

Displacement: 1,440 t light; 1,509 t standard; 1,802 t normal; 2,036 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught

338.58 ft / 328.08 ft x 37.73 ft x 10.50 ft (normal load) [103.20 m / 100.00 m x 11.50 m x 3.20 m]

Armament:

4 - 5.04" / 128 mm guns (2x2 guns), 63.99lbs / 29.03kg shells, 1948 Model Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 2.17" / 55.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 5.08lbs / 2.30kg shells, 1948 Model Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
4 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1948 Model Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts on side, evenly spread
4 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1948 Model Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 283 lbs / 129 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 200

Armour:

Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.59" / 15 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
2nd: 0.59" / 15 mm 0.59" / 15 mm -
3rd: 0.39" / 10 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -

Conning tower: 0.98" / 25 mm

Machinery:

Diesel Internal combustion motors, Geared drive, 2 shafts, 10,171 shp / 7,587 Kw = 24.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 527 tons

Complement: 137 - 179

Cost: £0.857 million / $3.428 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:

Armament: 35 tons, 2.0 %
Armour: 18 tons, 1.0 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 15 tons, 0.8 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 3 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 249 tons, 13.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 838 tons, 46.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 362 tons, 20.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 16.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:

Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship): 3,604 lbs / 1,635 Kg = 56.3 x 5.0 " / 128 mm shells or 1.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 1.4 ft / 0.4 m
Roll period: 13.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 67 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.40
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.47

Hull form characteristics:

Hull has low quarterdeck and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.485
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.70: 1
'Natural speed' for length: 20.94 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 46
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 19.50 degrees
Stern overhang: 4.10 ft / 1.25 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 6.56 ft / 2.00 m (14.76 ft / 4.50 m before break)
- Stern: 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
- Average freeboard: 14.65 ft / 4.47 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:

Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 79.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 177.8 %
Waterplane Area: 8,461 Square feet or 786 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 164 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 60 lbs/sq ft or 291 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.91
- Longitudinal: 2.69
- Overall: 1.02
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Breakdown of miscellaneous weight:

Extra Accommodation for cadets: 100 tons
Classroom space for cadets: 50 tons
Recreation space: 50 tons
Radar and fire control equipment - 50 tons
Antisubmarine Training Equipment: 50 tons

Looks good.
What does the Antisubmarine Training Equipment consist of?

Quoted from "Hood"

Looks good.
What does the Antisubmarine Training Equipment consist of?

I haven't figured out the exact details yet...

No doubt idiot-proof depth charges.

Quoted from "Rooijen10"

No doubt idiot-proof depth charges. :)

If the Kriegsmarine should develop such an item, we will happily license them to the IJN, gratis. They need them.
:P

Quoted

If the Kriegsmarine should develop such an item, we will happily license them to the IJN, gratis.

What? Krappy Kraut Kwality? No thanks.

Quoted

They need them.

I doubt they do. The IJN needing idiot-proof torpedoes I agree, but Japan can build those themselves.

A guy with a black board:
"This is how sonar works guys it sends out a signal like this, PINNNNG!
If there is an object it bounces back, GAAH!
So you've found a sub have you? Well it could be a school of fish, an eddy of water or the empties the mess orderly has just chucked overboard. How do you tell? Practice, lots of lovely practice.
All together now!
PING-GAH, PING-GAH, PING-GAH
Stop laughing at the back!
PING-GAH, PING-GAH, PING-GAH"

Nordhausen, German Frigate laid down 1948

Displacement: 1,863 t light; 2,025 t standard; 2,370 t normal; 2,646 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught

393.84 ft / 380.58 ft x 36.91 ft x 13.12 ft (normal load) [120.04 m / 116.00 m x 11.25 m x 4.00 m]

Armament:

4 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (2x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1948 Model Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 2.17" / 55.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 5.08lbs / 2.30kg shells, 1948 Model Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
2 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1948 Model Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 162 lbs / 74 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 1,200

Armour:

Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.79" / 20 mm -
2nd: 0.59" / 15 mm 0.59" / 15 mm -
3rd: 0.59" / 15 mm 0.59" / 15 mm -

Conning tower: 1.57" / 40 mm

Machinery:

Diesel Internal combustion motors, Geared drive, 2 shafts, 39,450 shp / 29,430 Kw = 33.00 kts
Range 8,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 622 tons

Complement: 169 - 220

Cost: £1.641 million / $6.564 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:

Armament: 24 tons, 1.0 %
Armour: 19 tons, 0.8 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 13 tons, 0.5 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 6 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 964 tons, 40.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 706 tons, 29.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 507 tons, 21.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 6.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:

Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship): 984 lbs / 446 Kg = 27.9 x 4.1 " / 105 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
Metacentric height 1.4 ft / 0.4 m
Roll period: 12.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 87 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.29
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.35

Hull form characteristics:

Hull has a flush deck and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.450
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.31: 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.35 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 66 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 65
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 22.97 ft / 7.00 m
- Forecastle (25 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Quarterdeck (25 %): 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Stern: 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Average freeboard: 17.96 ft / 5.48 m

Ship space, strength and comments:

Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 150.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 180.7 %
Waterplane Area: 9,307 Square feet or 865 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 36 lbs/sq ft or 175 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.51
- Longitudinal: 2.60
- Overall: 0.60
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Miscellaneous Weight - 150 tons, comprising

Reserved for A/S standoff weapon - 50 tons
Reserved for air warning radar - 30 tons
Reserved for fire control radar - 30 tons
Reserved for A/S detection equipment - 30 tons
Reserved for future growth or not yet allocated - 10 tons

It looks a bit weak for a ship of its size. The guns also have a LOT of ammunition, almost twice what I recall was historically carried. It'd take a full sixty minutes at 20 RPM to clear the magazines... probably have to replace the barrel liners before you ran out of ammunition!

Diesel engines only? Seems an odd choice for the steam plant to be ditched on a design intended to go fast...

A destroyer by any other name is apparently a frigate... :P

Looking at Navweaps, for the 10.5 cm/45 the barrel life is given as 4100 rounds and for the 10.5 cm/65 it is 2950. The higher wear of automatic fire will probably cut those values down by something like 30-50% but that should still be okay with 1200 rounds...

... of course if all those 1200 rounds were fired it would indeed be a good idea to replace those liners when the ship returns to port.

Quoted

A destroyer by any other name is apparently a frigate...

To be more precise, Destroyer - TT = Frigate in the eyes of the Germans.

The use of diesel powerplants on the Kriegsmarine's frigates goes back to the Klagenfurt class, and so is not that new.

As Walter notes, the frigates of the Kriegsmarine do not carry torpedo tubes, but rather are expected to fulfill anti-submarine and anti-air screening tasks. In this regard it is expected that improved radar fire control coupled with proximity fuses will permit destruction of incoming targets without resort to mass barrages (besides, that's what the Asperns are for).

Quoted from "BruceDuncan"

Nordhausen, German Frigate laid down 1948

Shells per gun, main battery: 1,200

I agree, that's a LOT of ammo. Cut it in half and use the savings for other things...

Date: 1948
Type: Coastal

Length: 45.0 metres
Beam: 5.5 metres
Draft: 5.5 metres
Crush depth: 225 metres

Light Displacement: 497 tons
Loaded Displacement: 569 tons
Full Displacement: 681 tons

Weight of fuel and batteries: 185 tons
Reserve buoyancy: 16%

Armament:
- 4 x 533mm torpedo tubes (all forward)
- 12 tons for mines or reload torpedoes

Electric Motors: 800 hp
Diesel Motors: 2,700 hp
Speed:
- Max Surfaced Speed: 10.9 knots
- Max Submerged Speed: 17.0 knots

Range:
- Surfaced: 7,593 nm at 8 knots
- Submerged: 193 nm at 6 knots

Tons Oil: 60.0 tons
Tons Battery: 125.0 tons
Miscellaneous Weight: 30 tons

Fitted with air mast for operation of diesel engines while submerged

1,200rpg on the Nordhausen seems overkill to me (I suspect you had excess hull strength to use), 800rpg would be ample and still be a plentiful supply.

Eisblume, German Icebreaking Harbour/River Tug laid down 1948

Displacement: 457 t light; 467 t standard; 514 t normal; 552 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught

180.34 ft / 174.87 ft x 30.02 ft x 6.23 ft (normal load) [54.97 m / 53.30 m x 9.15 m x 1.90 m]

Armament:

2 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1944 Model Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 0 lbs / 0 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 800

Armour:

Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 0.79" / 20 mm 174.54 ft / 53.20 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length

Torpedo Bulkhead: 0.79" / 20 mm 174.54 ft / 53.20 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m

Machinery:

Diesel Internal combustion generators, Electric motors, 2 shafts, 801 shp / 597 Kw = 13.60 kts
Range 6,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 85 tons

Complement: 53 - 70

Cost: £0.140 million / $0.560 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:

Armament: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Armour: 101 tons, 19.7 %
- Belts: 51 tons, 10.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 50 tons, 9.7 %
- Armament: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 20 tons, 3.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 276 tons, 53.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 57 tons, 11.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 60 tons, 11.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:

Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship): 4,350 lbs / 1,973 Kg = 17,822.9 x 0.8 " / 20 mm shells or 3.2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.20
Metacentric height 1.2 ft / 0.4 m
Roll period: 11.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 86 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.95

Hull form characteristics:

Hull has low quarterdeck
Block coefficient: 0.550
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.83: 1
'Natural speed' for length: 13.22 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 44
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 1.64 ft / 0.50 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 18.04 ft / 5.50 m
- Mid (25 %): 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
- Quarterdeck (60 %): 6.56 ft / 2.00 m (14.76 ft / 4.50 m before break)
- Stern: 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
- Average freeboard: 10.50 ft / 3.20 m

Ship space, strength and comments:

Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 80.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 203.0 %
Waterplane Area: 3,664 Square feet or 340 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 256 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 50 lbs/sq ft or 246 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.17
- Longitudinal: 4.44
- Overall: 1.33
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Breakdown of Miscellaneous Weight

Two auxiliary diesel-electric generating sets - 20 tons each - total 40 tons
Provision for stowed towing cables and winch aft - 10 tons
Navigation and communications equipment - 10 tons

Spaun, German Fleet Aircraft Carrier laid down 1948

Displacement: 38,250 t light; 39,388 t standard; 45,311 t normal; 50,050 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught

907.58 ft / 885.83 ft x 114.83 ft x 26.25 ft (normal load) [276.63 m / 270.00 m x 35.00 m x 8.00 m]

Armament:

32 - 2.17" / 55.0 mm guns (16x2 guns), 5.08lbs / 2.30kg shells, 1948 Model Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1948 Model Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 164 lbs / 75 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 2,500

Armour:

Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.94" / 100 mm 656.17 ft / 200.00 m 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
Ends: 1.97" / 50 mm 229.66 ft / 70.00 m 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
Upper: 1.97" / 50 mm 656.17 ft / 200.00 m 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
Main Belt covers 114 % of normal length

Torpedo Bulkhead: 1.18" / 30 mm 787.40 ft / 240.00 m 24.08 ft / 7.34 m

Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.59" / 15 mm -
2nd: 0.39" / 10 mm - -

Armour deck: 3.15" / 80 mm, Conning tower: 3.94" / 100 mm

Machinery:

Oil fired boilers, steam turbines plus diesel motors, Geared drive, 4 shafts, 197,784 shp / 147,547 Kw = 33.00 kts
Range 15,000nm at 18.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 10,662 tons

Complement: 1,552 - 2,018

Cost: £15.153 million / $60.611 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:

Armament: 21 tons, 0.0 %
Armour: 8,390 tons, 18.5 %
- Belts: 2,933 tons, 6.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 829 tons, 1.8 %
- Armament: 29 tons, 0.1 %
- Armour Deck: 4,492 tons, 9.9 %
- Conning Tower: 108 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 4,833 tons, 10.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 15,005 tons, 33.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 7,061 tons, 15.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 10,000 tons, 22.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:

Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship): 97,779 lbs / 44,352 Kg = 19,261.4 x 2.2 " / 55 mm shells or 15.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
Metacentric height 8.0 ft / 2.4 m
Roll period: 17.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 80 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.31

Hull form characteristics:

Hull has a flush deck and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.594
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.71: 1
'Natural speed' for length: 34.32 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 61
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 31.99 ft / 9.75 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Stern: 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Average freeboard: 29.72 ft / 9.06 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:

Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 73.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 279.4 %
Waterplane Area: 77,094 Square feet or 7,162 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 161 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 146 lbs/sq ft or 714 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 1.05
- Longitudinal: 1.10
- Overall: 1.05
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Breakdown of miscellaneous weight

8,100 tons for 90 aircraft
400 tons for 16 spare aircraft @ 25 tons each
Air and surface warning radars - 300 tons
Fire control radars and integrated gun directors - 300 tons
Flight operations center - 300 tons
Flag accommodations - 100 tons
Enhanced damage control system (CO2 flooding, etc) - 200 tons
Aviation equipment - catapults etc. - 300 tons

I agree on the Nordhausen ammunition numbers. Average stowage was more like 300-500 rounds per gun in this period (the Gearings had 360 rpg). Even today a type 45 destroyer only carries 800 rounds of 4.5in ammunition.

On the other hand, the 3inch guns on the Tiger Class Cruisers had 850 rpg plus ready ammunition (160 rpg), likewise the Mitschers had 1000 rpg.

Quoted

Armament:

32 - 2.17" / 55.0 mm guns (16x2 guns), 5.08lbs / 2.30kg shells, 1948 Model Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1948 Model Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 164 lbs / 75 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 2,500

For my 1948 design, I was having doubts about my decision to kick the 5" guns off the carrier and use the 75mm guns as the heaviest gun and wondering if I should reverse that decision and put them back on. Seeing that you are willing to go as low as 55mm makes me much more comfortable with that decision now.

When you consider that aircraft carriers are sitting inside the ring of their escorts (BB/BC, CA/CL, DD etc, radiating outward) if the major guns on the escorts haven't gotten the attacking aircraft, major guns on the carrier itself are a desperate last resort. The 55mm is sufficient to kill anything that makes it through, at least IMHO. YMMV.

What about against a rocket-powered glide bomb? I would think that something meatier with a prox fuse would be beneficial in knocking fast targets down.

Quoted

Aviation equipment - catapults etc. - 300 tons

Seems a bit light perhaps, unless my misc weight for similar items is too high for lifts, catapults and arrestor gear? Though I have simmed the steam catapults heavy as there is a lot of piping and 'stuff' and maybe an additional boiler too.