WesWorld

So, taking a look at Nordmark's manning issues, I've discovered - to probably no one's surprise - that I've got far too large a fleet for my ability to actually man. The essence of my plan for dealing with that problem is to completely retire battleships and battlecruisers as a type and make aircraft carriers my only 'capital ship' units. The current 'Plan A' is to have four of those, four fleet supply ships, eight CAs, twelve large CLs, and 24 large open-sea DDs forming the 'North Sea Fleet', with an echelon of eight tenders, 16 smaller CLs, and 32 smaller DDs for commerce and flag-showing duties, and a mixed force of hovercraft and MTBs for coast-guard-type duties.

To do that, I need to build the supply ships, two new carriers to match the Gam-class's ability to carry full air groups of the large, heavy aircraft Nordmark's fielding, three CAs, and the 'fleet type' DDs.

Because they're the hulls that will take the longest to build, I'm starting my design work by clean-sheeting that up from first principles.

The first thing to be determined was the air group I wanted - I'm trying to go with sixteen-plan squadrons in Nordish service, which'd make the potential group sizes sixteen, thirty-two, forty-eight, sixty-four, or eighty. Treating large aircraft like the Blizzard and Aurora as 1.5 and 1.2 planes apiece, respectively, made the last impractical, while the first two were obviously too small. I didn't want the hassle of figuring out which way to bias the air group, so the three-squadron layout didn't appeal - and, conveniently, the tonnage required for a sixty-four plane group at 1.5 'Design Planes' apiece is only a hair greater than that featured on the existing Gam class.

So sixty-four - or rather, ninety-six - it is. The CV design rules tell us that the Misc tonnage required is the square of the air-group - in this case, 9,216 tons, and also the minimum total area of the deck. Fiddling into reasonable proportions produces...





Skaggerak, Nordmark Fleet Carrier laid down 1945

Displacement:
31,585 t light; 32,480 t standard; 35,868 t normal; 38,579 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
809.19 ft / 787.40 ft x 91.86 ft x 32.81 ft (normal load)
246.64 m / 240.00 m x 28.00 m x 10.00 m

Armament:
8 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns in single mounts, 67.03lbs / 30.41kg shells, 1945 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
32 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (8x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1945 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 599 lbs / 272 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 500

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.91" / 150 mm 472.44 ft / 144.00 m 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 92 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.95" / 75 mm 472.44 ft / 144.00 m 31.96 ft / 9.74 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.39" / 10 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
2nd: 0.59" / 15 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -

- Armour deck: 3.94" / 100 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 167,817 shp / 125,191 Kw = 33.00 kts
Range 5,000nm at 24.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 6,099 tons

Complement:
1,303 - 1,694

Cost:
£12.249 million / $48.997 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 88 tons, 0.2 %
Armour: 7,197 tons, 20.1 %
- Belts: 1,766 tons, 4.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,649 tons, 4.6 %
- Armament: 30 tons, 0.1 %
- Armour Deck: 3,752 tons, 10.5 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 4,238 tons, 11.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,762 tons, 30.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,283 tons, 11.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 9,300 tons, 25.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
63,181 lbs / 28,658 Kg = 942.5 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 9.0 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 5.3 ft / 1.6 m
Roll period: 16.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.04
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.72

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.529
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.57 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 32.31 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 35
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 32.81 ft / 10.00 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 32.81 ft / 10.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 32.81 ft / 10.00 m
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 32.81 ft / 10.00 m
- Stern: 32.81 ft / 10.00 m
- Average freeboard: 32.81 ft / 10.00 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 89.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 247.0 %
Waterplane Area: 51,510 Square feet or 4,785 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 140 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 128 lbs/sq ft or 623 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.93
- Longitudinal: 1.89
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

32 fighter aircraft
32 bomber aircraft

I have comments on two levels - the first technical, the second strategic.

The aircraft carrier design has little provision for anything other than aircraft in its miscellaneous weight. I believe you ought to reconsider that - such things as electronic systems, damage control, spare aircraft - will require some provision in that category. That will have cascade impact across the design.

Strategically, I am not certain whether the focus on aircraft carriers make sense for Nordmark. The aircraft carrier is an offensive, power-projection platform, and without supporting capital ships, leaves you only that option. Unless you plan to carry a war to Canada, that makes small sense to me. I think that given Nordmark's very extensive merchant fleet and limited overseas commitments (territory wise) a concentration on commerce protection would make greater sense.

I can see the logic of that (edit: downsizing, that is). Wouldn't surprise me if other powers had similar issues.

I take it, then, that you'd also be retiring the various small carriers. What about your escort/submarine/amphib elements?

I can see you getting rid of the older capital ships, but your last 3 are still quite new. Also Mexico would be more than willing to help you out by taking Gassen of your hands...

Quoted from "Desertfox"

Also Mexico would be more than willing to help you out by taking Gassen of your hands...

You shouldn't bid on anything for Mexico until you've got your sim reports caught up. As of last count, you still need seven reports for Australia and three for Mexico... :rolleyes:

Quoted from "Desertfox"

I can see you getting rid of the older capital ships, but your last 3 are still quite new. Also Mexico would be more than willing to help you out by taking Gassen of your hands...

Nordmark does not need 'assistance' to 'take the Gassen' off its hands. The Gassen was disposed of to Germany several quarters ago, and now serves as the Kriegsmarine's training carrier Moltke.

Looking it up, I noticed that it was bought for 1,000 tons. Don't know why so low, but I am sure that there would be many nations around who would have offered much, much more than that for that carrier. Sounds to me like a really bad deal...

Quoted from "Rooijen10"

Looking it up, I noticed that it was bought for 1,000 tons. Don't know why so low, but I am sure that there would be many nations around who would have offered much, much more than that for that carrier. Sounds to me like a really bad deal...

There were also non-tonnage considerations as part of the deal. There are no MSRPs on second-hand ship sales.

There may be no MSRPs but there is a minimum price below which it is better to scrap the ship than to sell it. In this case, it would have been a much better deal for Nordmark to scrap the Gassen than to sell it to Germany for that price... No non-tonnage considerations exist to make this deal a fairer deal for Nordmark. They have been conned, tricked and swindled by the Scamming Hun Thieves... (but that is my opinion )

Quoted from "BruceDuncan"

I have comments on two levels - the first technical, the second strategic.

The aircraft carrier design has little provision for anything other than aircraft in its miscellaneous weight. I believe you ought to reconsider that - such things as electronic systems, damage control, spare aircraft - will require some provision in that category. That will have cascade impact across the design.

I consider spare parts - adequate to assemble new aircraft if absolutely necessary - to fall within the hundred thirty-odd tons allocated to each aircraft that doesn't consist of, well, aircraft, and the existing overage should be enough for radar systems. Do you have any suggestions for the tonnage that should go towards damage control?

Quoted from "BruceDuncan"

Strategically, I am not certain whether the focus on aircraft carriers make sense for Nordmark. The aircraft carrier is an offensive, power-projection platform, and without supporting capital ships, leaves you only that option. Unless you plan to carry a war to Canada, that makes small sense to me. I think that given Nordmark's very extensive merchant fleet and limited overseas commitments (territory wise) a concentration on commerce protection would make greater sense.

Nordmark is unlikely to need to carry a war to Canada, true. It is likely that any war - as in, against only one potential opponent might it not - it does have is going to involve the need to retain control of the North Atlantic and its trade routes between Scandanavia and GreenIceVinland against a determined attempt to take that away. Militarily, this might be survivable, but it isn't and shouldn't be politically an option... which means that the main mission of Nordmark's fleet is to keep the North Atlantic open to their convoys. The number of convoy escorts to do that that way is impracticable to maintain in peacetime, as is the current 'balanced fleet' aimed at the same task.

That leaves the options to one, delete the battle line, two, delete the carriers, or three, cut down to one or two of each, given the acknowledgement that Nordmark's manning situation makes the status quo impossible to maintain. Whatever they do, they're taking a gamble, but in 1945, the technical crystal balls are going to be favoring the carriers as the best option.

Quoted from "The Rock Doctor"

I can see the logic of that (edit: downsizing, that is). Wouldn't surprise me if other powers had similar issues.

I take it, then, that you'd also be retiring the various small carriers. What about your escort/submarine/amphib elements?

The newer elements of the current force in all classes will be going into mothballs, as will all of the BBs, rather than the scrapyard; remaining active will be the Luleas and four of their preceeding sister class, the sixteen Tiermes class, the ten DD45s and the twenty-four DD38s. The current submarine force is considered of appropriate size, while amphibious manning will be folded over to the marine jaeger's budget.

In general, it should be figured that Nordish DDs are going to be armed as large subchasers first and multicapability ships second, while CLs will evolve into anti-air specialists.

Quoted from "Rooijen10"

There may be no MSRPs but there is a minimum price below which it is better to scrap the ship than to sell it. In this case, it would have been a much better deal for Nordmark to scrap the Gassen than to sell it to Germany for that price... No non-tonnage considerations exist to make this deal a fairer deal for Nordmark. They have been conned, tricked and swindled by the Scamming Hun Thieves... (but that is my opinion )

How big a tonnage price do you place on first-rate jet engine technology, when you don't already have it, or on keeping a strategically necessary ally sweet? In my case, the difference between the Gassen's scrap value and a thousand tons.

Quoted

I consider spare parts - adequate to assemble new aircraft if absolutely necessary - to fall within the hundred thirty-odd tons allocated to each aircraft that doesn't consist of, well, aircraft, and the existing overage should be enough for radar systems. Do you have any suggestions for the tonnage that should go towards damage control?

There are a few things that I try to stick to, including damage control...
(taken from the Nurikabe sim)
Additional aircraft spare parts: 4 tons per operational aircraft
Repair shop: 3 tons per operational aircraft + 1 ton per spare aircraft
Flight operations center: 2 tons per operational aircraft
Briefing room: 1 ton per operational aircraft
Damage control and fire suppression systems: 1 ton per 100 tons light displacement
Emergency diesel generators: 1 ton per 400 tons light displacement
Air condition system: 1 ton per 100 tons light displacement
Degaussing coils: 1 ton per 5 feet of length (oa)

Quoted from "Rooijen10"

There may be no MSRPs but there is a minimum price below which it is better to scrap the ship than to sell it. In this case, it would have been a much better deal for Nordmark to scrap the Gassen than to sell it to Germany for that price... No non-tonnage considerations exist to make this deal a fairer deal for Nordmark. They have been conned, tricked and swindled by the Scamming Hun Thieves... (but that is my opinion :) )

As you will. Nordmark seems happy enough with the results. :sleeping:

Valles wrote,

Quoted

I consider spare parts - adequate to assemble new aircraft if absolutely necessary - to fall within the hundred thirty-odd tons allocated to each aircraft that doesn't consist of, well, aircraft...

I would defer to those who crafted our rules but the miscellaneous tonnage allocated to aircraft under our rules is more an abstract than definitive mass, and our common practice is to allocate 25 tons additional misc weight for each spare aircraft carried in a disassembled state. I don't think you can cram your spare aircraft into the 130-odd tons already allocated.

Taking another whack at it...

...and whimpering at the manpower required by the hull growth.




Skaggerak, Nordmark Fleet Carrier laid down 1945

Displacement:
36,795 t light; 37,803 t standard; 41,554 t normal; 44,555 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
806.80 ft / 787.40 ft x 98.43 ft x 32.81 ft (normal load)
245.91 m / 240.00 m x 30.00 m x 10.00 m

Armament:
8 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns in single mounts, 67.03lbs / 30.40kg shells, 1945 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
32 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (8x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1945 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 599 lbs / 272 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 500

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.91" / 150 mm 503.94 ft / 153.60 m 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 98 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.95" / 75 mm 503.94 ft / 153.60 m 30.41 ft / 9.27 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.39" / 10 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
2nd: 0.59" / 15 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -

- Armour deck: 3.94" / 100 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 187,968 shp / 140,224 Kw = 33.00 kts
Range 5,000nm at 24.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 6,751 tons

Complement:
1,454 - 1,891

Cost:
£14.001 million / $56.005 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 88 tons, 0.2 %
Armour: 7,772 tons, 18.7 %
- Belts: 1,880 tons, 4.5 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,674 tons, 4.0 %
- Armament: 29 tons, 0.1 %
- Armour Deck: 4,189 tons, 10.1 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 4,747 tons, 11.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,938 tons, 26.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,759 tons, 11.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 13,250 tons, 31.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
59,556 lbs / 27,014 Kg = 888.4 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 8.6 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 5.9 ft / 1.8 m
Roll period: 17.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 46 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.03
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.09

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.572
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 32.34 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 39
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Forecastle (18 %): 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Quarterdeck (18 %): 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Stern: 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Average freeboard: 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 93.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 197.7 %
Waterplane Area: 57,511 Square feet or 5,343 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 133 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 131 lbs/sq ft or 639 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.25
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

32 fighter aircraft (4608 tons)
32 bomber aircraft (4608 tons)

16 crated aircraft (8 fighters, 8 bombers, 400 tons)
64 lots spare parts (256 tons)

Damage Control Systems (3000 tons)
Flight Control Center (128 tons)
Repair Shop (208 tons)

Quoted from "Valles"

Taking another whack at it...

...and whimpering at the manpower required by the hull growth.

And Springsharp doesn't even take into account the manpower of the airgroup itself, which probably adds anywhere between 25-50% more men.

Manpower issues are one of the nasty things that complicate real-life aircraft carriers, too...

3,000 t of damage control seems like massive over-kill to me.

Quoted from "The Rock Doctor"

3,000 t of damage control seems like massive over-kill to me.

Agreed. I think that is an area in which you could economize.

Quoted from "The Rock Doctor"

3,000 t of damage control seems like massive over-kill to me.

*checks*

...That would be because I fail to math in head. *facepalm*

You're right; that should be 300.


Thus...



Skaggerak, Nordmark Fleet Carrier laid down 1945

Displacement:
33,025 t light; 33,950 t standard; 37,413 t normal; 40,184 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
806.80 ft / 787.40 ft x 98.43 ft x 32.81 ft (normal load)
245.91 m / 240.00 m x 30.00 m x 10.00 m

Armament:
8 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns in single mounts, 67.03lbs / 30.40kg shells, 1945 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
32 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (8x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1945 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 599 lbs / 272 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 500

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 5.91" / 150 mm 503.94 ft / 153.60 m 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 98 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
2.95" / 75 mm 503.94 ft / 153.60 m 30.41 ft / 9.27 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.39" / 10 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
2nd: 0.59" / 15 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -

- Armour deck: 3.94" / 100 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 171,419 shp / 127,878 Kw = 33.00 kts
Range 5,000nm at 24.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 6,234 tons

Complement:
1,344 - 1,748

Cost:
£12.685 million / $50.741 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 88 tons, 0.2 %
Armour: 7,544 tons, 20.2 %
- Belts: 1,873 tons, 5.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,674 tons, 4.5 %
- Armament: 29 tons, 0.1 %
- Armour Deck: 3,967 tons, 10.6 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 4,329 tons, 11.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,514 tons, 28.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,389 tons, 11.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 10,550 tons, 28.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
58,476 lbs / 26,524 Kg = 872.3 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 8.9 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
Metacentric height 6.2 ft / 1.9 m
Roll period: 16.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.03
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.30

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.515
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 32.55 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 39
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Forecastle (18 %): 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Quarterdeck (18 %): 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Stern: 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Average freeboard: 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 89.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 202.6 %
Waterplane Area: 54,460 Square feet or 5,059 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 136 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 131 lbs/sq ft or 640 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.34
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

32 fighter aircraft (4608 tons)
32 bomber aircraft (4608 tons)

16 crated aircraft (8 fighters, 8 bombers, 400 tons)
64 lots spare parts (256 tons)

Damage Control Systems (300 tons)
Flight Control Center (128 tons)
Repair Shop (208 tons)
Radars (42 tons)

1,334 hull crew and 1,168 air group.