Russian Ships for 1944

The Shadow

Thursday, August 28th 2014, 1:48am

Well, let's start some discussion about what I've been working on for Russia.

First up is a tripartite project - the three classes of Russian torpedo cruisers, Minsk, Moskva, and Kiev. These fifteen ships are really more heavy 1930s-era destroyers (almost French-styled contretorpilleurs), and so I'm refitting them as such. I made the same changes to each of them: new engines, a third 130mm twin turret aft (and updated guns forward), and new engines but reduced speed. The four triple torpedo tubes are now replaced by two quadruple torpedo launchers, which reduces some of the broadside but gains (amongst other things) a bit of topweight and deck space.

Go to the top of the page

Brockpaine

The Shadow

Posts: 15,109

2

Thursday, August 28th 2014, 1:50am

Minsk-class, Russian Torpedo Cruiser laid down 1928 (Engine 1944)

Displacement:
2,504 t light; 2,684 t standard; 3,088 t normal; 3,411 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
492.13 ft / 492.13 ft x 41.83 ft x 13.12 ft (normal load)
150.00 m / 150.00 m x 12.75 m x 4.00 m

Armament:
6 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns (3x2 guns), 67.03lbs / 30.41kg shells, 1944 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
8 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1928 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 415 lbs / 188 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 500
8 - 25.6" / 650 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm 0.79" / 20 mm
2nd: 0.98" / 25 mm - -

- Conning tower: 1.18" / 30 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 50,867 shp / 37,947 Kw = 35.00 kts
Range 7,500nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 727 tons

Complement:
206 - 269

Cost:
£1.213 million / $4.853 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 62 tons, 2.0 %
Armour: 17 tons, 0.6 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 12 tons, 0.4 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 5 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 1,272 tons, 41.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,003 tons, 32.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 583 tons, 18.9 %
Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 4.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,165 lbs / 528 Kg = 17.4 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 0.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.17
Metacentric height 1.8 ft / 0.5 m
Roll period: 13.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 85 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.46
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.22

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.400
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.76 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 25.33 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24.28 ft / 7.40 m
- Forecastle (25 %): 21.65 ft / 6.60 m
- Mid (50 %): 19.03 ft / 5.80 m (11.48 ft / 3.50 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
- Stern: 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
- Average freeboard: 16.50 ft / 5.03 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 156.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 111.1 %
Waterplane Area: 13,151 Square feet or 1,222 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 95 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 44 lbs/sq ft or 213 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.56
- Longitudinal: 1.12
- Overall: 0.60
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Go to the top of the page

Brockpaine

The Shadow

Posts: 15,109

3

Thursday, August 28th 2014, 1:51am

Moskva-class, Russian Torpedo Cruiser laid down 1930 (Engine 1944)

Displacement:
2,438 t light; 2,616 t standard; 3,049 t normal; 3,395 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
467.23 ft / 459.32 ft x 41.17 ft x 14.11 ft (normal load)
142.41 m / 140.00 m x 12.55 m x 4.30 m

Armament:
6 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns (3x2 guns), 67.03lbs / 30.41kg shells, 1944 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
4 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (1x4 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1930 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in a deck mount with hoist
on centreline aft
4 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1930 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 415 lbs / 188 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 500
8 - 25.6" / 650 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 2.76" / 70 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -
2nd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -

- Conning tower: 2.76" / 70 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 46,291 shp / 34,533 Kw = 34.00 kts
Range 8,200nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 779 tons

Complement:
204 - 266

Cost:
£1.266 million / $5.065 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 62 tons, 2.0 %
Armour: 35 tons, 1.2 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 23 tons, 0.7 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 12 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 1,182 tons, 38.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,009 tons, 33.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 611 tons, 20.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 4.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,289 lbs / 585 Kg = 19.2 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 0.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.19
Metacentric height 1.8 ft / 0.6 m
Roll period: 12.8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 81 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.47
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.41

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.400
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.16 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.57 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Forecastle (25 %): 24.61 ft / 7.50 m
- Mid (50 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m (11.48 ft / 3.50 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
- Stern: 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
- Average freeboard: 17.92 ft / 5.46 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 149.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 101.9 %
Waterplane Area: 12,081 Square feet or 1,122 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 100 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 43 lbs/sq ft or 212 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.55
- Longitudinal: 1.71
- Overall: 0.61
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Go to the top of the page

Brockpaine

The Shadow

Posts: 15,109

4

Thursday, August 28th 2014, 1:53am

Kiev-class, Russian Torpedo Cruiser laid down 1934 (Engine 1944)

Displacement:
2,204 t light; 2,402 t standard; 2,985 t normal; 3,451 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
499.33 ft / 475.72 ft x 41.83 ft x 13.12 ft (normal load)
152.20 m / 145.00 m x 12.75 m x 4.00 m

Armament:
6 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns (3x2 guns), 79.37lbs / 36.00kg shells, 1944 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
8 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1934 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 489 lbs / 222 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 500
8 - 25.6" / 650 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 45,025 shp / 33,589 Kw = 34.00 kts
Range 7,500nm at 18.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 1,049 tons

Complement:
201 - 262

Cost:
£1.424 million / $5.696 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 62 tons, 2.1 %
Machinery: 1,150 tons, 38.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 843 tons, 28.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 780 tons, 26.1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 5.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,128 lbs / 512 Kg = 16.8 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 0.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.35
Metacentric height 2.3 ft / 0.7 m
Roll period: 11.6 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 74 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.40
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.26

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.400
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.37 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.97 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Forecastle (25 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Mid (40 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m (12.30 ft / 3.75 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 12.30 ft / 3.75 m
- Stern: 12.30 ft / 3.75 m
- Average freeboard: 16.24 ft / 4.95 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 149.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 100.3 %
Waterplane Area: 12,712 Square feet or 1,181 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 38 lbs/sq ft or 187 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.01
- Overall: 0.53
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Go to the top of the page

BruceDuncan

Ex chaos ordo

Posts: 12,916

5

Thursday, August 28th 2014, 2:04am

Hmm. Interesting challenge working with these.

Their designed L:B ratio pre-dates the change that limits that factor to 11:1 - so that is not a criticism, but a fact of life.

The only adverse comments I have at the moment are on the Kiev class refit.

1 - Why not make the 37mm battery antiaircraft as you did the previous classes?

2 - The percentage of fuel is rather high in the Kiev - more than 26%, and her bunkers at max are practically 1/3 of the full load displacement. This is a touchy subject I know, but it may be a bit too high.

Go to the top of the page

Brockpaine

The Shadow

Posts: 15,109

6

Thursday, August 28th 2014, 2:08am

Quoted from "BruceDuncan"

Their designed L:B ratio pre-dates the change that limits that factor to 11:1 - so that is not a criticism, but a fact of life.

Yeah - the rule was originally 12:1, but somewhere it got changed to 11:1. I thought about taking a slice out of the middle during the refits, but that's a harsher level of refit than I really care to undertake.

Quoted from "BruceDuncan"

The only adverse comments I have at the moment are on the Kiev class refit.

1 - Why not make the 37mm battery antiaircraft as you did the previous classes?

2 - The percentage of fuel is rather high in the Kiev - more than 26%, and her bunkers at max are practically 1/3 of the full load displacement. This is a touchy subject I know, but it may be a bit too high.

1 - a miss on my part, easily fixed.
2 - I may give that one some work.

Go to the top of the page

Brockpaine

The Shadow

Posts: 15,109

7

Thursday, August 28th 2014, 2:47am

So... here's another thing. Technically, several things.

In 1942, Russia laid down four "Pobeda" class battlecruisers. None of them were never named. I've hunted around for a few names, and made some decisions. One of the Slava class battleships was originally named Pobeda, but AdmK apparently renamed this ship Sotsialism. I hate this name. I despise it. Revile it, even. So, Sotsialism is renamed Pobeda, which means I need four names for the ships formerly known as Pobeda_1, Pobeda_2, Pobeda_3, and Pobeda_4. I have chosen Rostislav, Potemkin, Georgii Pobedonosets, and Retvizan.

There were also a few bugs with the one posted design. I made a few tweaks and wish to make this the official ship. It's got one big change - I made a superfiring B turret. Yes, on a Russian capital ship. I shall doubtless burn for that heresy, but that's just the way I roll.

Quoted

Rostislav-class, Russian Battlecruiser laid down 1942

Displacement:
48,000 t light; 50,562 t standard; 56,197 t normal; 60,705 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
910.75 ft / 885.83 ft x 104.99 ft (Bulges 115.49 ft) x 32.48 ft (normal load)
277.60 m / 270.00 m x 32.00 m (Bulges 35.20 m) x 9.90 m

Armament:
9 - 16.54" / 420 mm guns (3x3 guns), 2,645.55lbs / 1,200.00kg shells, 1942 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
20 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns (10x2 guns), 79.37lbs / 36.00kg shells, 1942 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, 6 raised mounts - superfiring
64 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (16x4 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1942 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 8 raised mounts
12 - 0.55" / 14.0 mm guns (6x2 guns), 0.08lbs / 0.04kg shells, 1942 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 25,497 lbs / 11,565 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 498.36 ft / 151.90 m 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
Ends: 2.76" / 70 mm 387.47 ft / 118.10 m 9.84 ft / 3.00 m
Main Belt covers 87 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
1.97" / 50 mm 498.36 ft / 151.90 m 35.27 ft / 10.75 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 15.7" / 400 mm 9.45" / 240 mm 11.8" / 300 mm
2nd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -
4th: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -

- Armour deck: 5.51" / 140 mm, Conning tower: 11.02" / 280 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 197,174 shp / 147,092 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 12,100nm at 18.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 10,143 tons

Complement:
1,824 - 2,372

Cost:
£30.016 million / $120.064 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 2,757 tons, 4.9 %
Armour: 16,628 tons, 29.6 %
- Belts: 4,094 tons, 7.3 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,280 tons, 2.3 %
- Armament: 3,732 tons, 6.6 %
- Armour Deck: 7,173 tons, 12.8 %
- Conning Tower: 348 tons, 0.6 %
Machinery: 5,151 tons, 9.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 23,040 tons, 41.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 8,197 tons, 14.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 425 tons, 0.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
83,884 lbs / 38,049 Kg = 37.1 x 16.5 " / 420 mm shells or 12.7 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
Metacentric height 6.9 ft / 2.1 m
Roll period: 18.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.72
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.18

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.592
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.67 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 34.34 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 51
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 39.37 ft / 12.00 m
- Forecastle (25 %): 31.50 ft / 9.60 m
- Mid (50 %): 23.62 ft / 7.20 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 24.61 ft / 7.50 m
- Stern: 27.23 ft / 8.30 m
- Average freeboard: 27.88 ft / 8.50 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 84.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 187.7 %
Waterplane Area: 70,347 Square feet or 6,535 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 114 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 225 lbs/sq ft or 1,099 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.97
- Longitudinal: 1.29
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Go to the top of the page

Brockpaine

The Shadow

Posts: 15,109

8

Thursday, August 28th 2014, 3:11am

And now another thing. AdmK laid down in 1943 the escort cruiser Chasovoi, a close classmate of the Khranitel. It was originally a 6x14" armed midget battlecruiser, or perhaps some nature of super pocket-battleship. But the ship has a bit less speed than I'd like for the role, and I don't really want to put any more tonnage into it...

So I'm going to rebuild it as an aircraft carrier, to be renamed Afonskoye.

Quoted

Afonskoye, Russian Aircraft Carrier laid down 1943

Displacement:
22,814 t light; 23,440 t standard; 28,578 t normal; 32,689 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
765.83 ft / 721.78 ft x 82.02 ft (Bulges 91.86 ft) x 31.17 ft (normal load)
233.42 m / 220.00 m x 25.00 m (Bulges 28.00 m) x 9.50 m

Armament:
8 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns (4x2 guns), 79.37lbs / 36.00kg shells, 1943 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 15.43lbs / 7.00kg shells, 1943 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
64 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (16x4 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1943 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 0.55" / 14.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.08lbs / 0.04kg shells, 1943 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 858 lbs / 389 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 1.57" / 40 mm 459.32 ft / 140.00 m 11.48 ft / 3.50 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 98 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
1.57" / 40 mm 459.32 ft / 140.00 m 30.18 ft / 9.20 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm 0.79" / 20 mm
2nd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm 0.79" / 20 mm
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -

- Armour deck: 4.72" / 120 mm, Conning tower: 9.84" / 250 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 102,131 shp / 76,189 Kw = 30.00 kts
Range 17,500nm at 18.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 9,249 tons

Complement:
1,098 - 1,428

Cost:
£8.239 million / $32.957 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 108 tons, 0.4 %
Armour: 4,926 tons, 17.2 %
- Belts: 351 tons, 1.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 808 tons, 2.8 %
- Armament: 36 tons, 0.1 %
- Armour Deck: 3,533 tons, 12.4 %
- Conning Tower: 198 tons, 0.7 %
Machinery: 2,638 tons, 9.2 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,643 tons, 26.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,764 tons, 20.2 %
Miscellaneous weights: 7,500 tons, 26.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
43,324 lbs / 19,652 Kg = 646.3 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 7.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
Metacentric height 4.6 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 18.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.06
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.33

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.484
Length to Beam Ratio: 7.86 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 31.34 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 45
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 55.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 30.84 ft / 9.40 m
- Forecastle (30 %): 20.67 ft / 6.30 m
- Mid (60 %): 19.03 ft / 5.80 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Stern: 21.00 ft / 6.40 m
- Average freeboard: 21.27 ft / 6.48 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 82.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 137.6 %
Waterplane Area: 40,418 Square feet or 3,755 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 154 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 121 lbs/sq ft or 591 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.98
- Longitudinal: 1.19
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

72 aircraft.

Go to the top of the page

Brockpaine

The Shadow

Posts: 15,109

9

Thursday, August 28th 2014, 3:37am

Updated Kiev.

Quoted

Kiev, Russian Torpedo Cruiser laid down 1934 (Engine 1944)

Displacement:
2,280 t light; 2,478 t standard; 2,985 t normal; 3,390 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
499.33 ft / 475.72 ft x 41.83 ft x 13.12 ft (normal load)
152.20 m / 145.00 m x 12.75 m x 4.00 m

Armament:
6 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns (3x2 guns), 79.37lbs / 36.00kg shells, 1944 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
8 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1944 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 489 lbs / 222 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 500
8 - 25.6" / 650 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm 0.79" / 20 mm
2nd: 0.20" / 5 mm - -

- Conning tower: 2.76" / 70 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 45,025 shp / 33,589 Kw = 34.00 kts
Range 6,500nm at 18.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 912 tons

Complement:
201 - 262

Cost:
£1.437 million / $5.748 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 62 tons, 2.1 %
Armour: 23 tons, 0.8 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 10 tons, 0.3 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 12 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 1,150 tons, 38.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 896 tons, 30.0 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 705 tons, 23.6 %
Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 5.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,165 lbs / 528 Kg = 17.4 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 0.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.29
Metacentric height 2.1 ft / 0.7 m
Roll period: 12.0 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 73 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.41
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.24

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.400
Length to Beam Ratio: 11.37 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 24.97 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 29.53 ft / 9.00 m
- Forecastle (25 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Mid (40 %): 19.69 ft / 6.00 m (12.30 ft / 3.75 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 12.30 ft / 3.75 m
- Stern: 12.30 ft / 3.75 m
- Average freeboard: 16.24 ft / 4.95 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 149.5 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 100.3 %
Waterplane Area: 12,712 Square feet or 1,181 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 41 lbs/sq ft or 199 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.53
- Longitudinal: 1.06
- Overall: 0.56
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Go to the top of the page

BruceDuncan

Ex chaos ordo

Posts: 12,916

10

Thursday, August 28th 2014, 3:53am

The revised Kiev looks better, if you ask me. The are so many limitations in the original design that only so much can be done with a refit.

Go to the top of the page

Brockpaine

The Shadow

Posts: 15,109

11

Thursday, August 28th 2014, 4:33am

And here's one of AdmK's ships, which I'm adopting for 1944 without alteration.

Quoted

Reval class, Russian Aircraft Carrier laid down 1944

Displacement:
49,854 t light; 51,388 t standard; 58,908 t normal; 64,923 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
1,002.82 ft / 967.85 ft x 104.99 ft (Bulges 118.11 ft) x 31.92 ft (normal load)
305.66 m / 295.00 m x 32.00 m (Bulges 36.00 m) x 9.73 m

Armament:
16 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns (8x2 guns), 79.37lbs / 36.00kg shells, 1944 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 15.43lbs / 7.00kg shells, 1944 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
64 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (16x4 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1944 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, 12 raised mounts
Weight of broadside 1,493 lbs / 677 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 400

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 3.15" / 80 mm 590.55 ft / 180.00 m 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Upper: 0.98" / 25 mm 721.78 ft / 220.00 m 42.65 ft / 13.00 m
Main Belt covers 94 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
1.97" / 50 mm 590.55 ft / 180.00 m 29.53 ft / 9.00 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -
2nd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -
3rd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -

- Armour deck: 3.94" / 100 mm, Conning tower: 3.15" / 80 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 4 shafts, 196,450 shp / 146,552 Kw = 32.00 kts
Range 16,000nm at 18.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 13,535 tons

Complement:
1,889 - 2,457

Cost:
£17.529 million / $70.118 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 189 tons, 0.3 %
Armour: 9,158 tons, 15.5 %
- Belts: 2,284 tons, 3.9 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 1,270 tons, 2.2 %
- Armament: 47 tons, 0.1 %
- Armour Deck: 5,455 tons, 9.3 %
- Conning Tower: 103 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 5,017 tons, 8.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 16,791 tons, 28.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 9,054 tons, 15.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 18,700 tons, 31.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
95,356 lbs / 43,253 Kg = 1,422.5 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 14.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
Metacentric height 7.0 ft / 2.1 m
Roll period: 18.7 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.05
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.76

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has raised forecastle
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.565
Length to Beam Ratio: 8.19 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 35.81 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 40
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 49.21 ft / 15.00 m
- Forecastle (33 %): 49.21 ft / 15.00 m (32.81 ft / 10.00 m aft of break)
- Mid (50 %): 32.81 ft / 10.00 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Stern: 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Average freeboard: 33.26 ft / 10.14 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 81.4 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 206.1 %
Waterplane Area: 74,899 Square feet or 6,958 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 150 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 147 lbs/sq ft or 716 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.99
- Longitudinal: 1.09
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Breakdown of Miscellaneous Weights:
- 800 tons: 130mm twin automatic DP mounts
- 80 tons: 75mm single automatic DP mounts
- 10 tons: Air Search Radar
- 10 tons: Aerial Battle Management Radar
- 20 tons: AA Fire Control radar (2)
- 250 tons: Aerial Combat Information Center
- 100 tons: Misc. extras

Aviation:
Aviation-2 Catapults, 42 Fighters, 42 Dive Bombers, 42 torpedo bombers
20 spare aircraft
Flight Deck-305m*37m

Ships in Class:
- Reval
- Rymnik

Go to the top of the page

Hood

Ugly Aircraft, Inc

Posts: 8,155

12

Thursday, August 28th 2014, 2:45pm

My thoughts on this interesting set of ships.

Torpedo Cruisers: generally I think the heavier warhead weight overcomes the reduction in broadside. These are certainly still powerful ships. The Minsks are beyond what I would consider for major work being 16 years old, but I guess its cheaper than new construction and as you say these would be considered destroyers in WW these days. The L:B issue is what it is, I see no reason to alter it just because the rules have changed since.

Pobeda: not much has changed from the original, but it is a better ship I think. Even so, stacking up that firewood for superfiring that turret...

Afonskoye: looks good. Much more practical use of resources than a super pocket-BB. The belt armour looks a little thin for my tastes (which fleet will it be based with? if not Blatic/ Black Sea then it might not matter as much), but probably a worthwhile sacrifice for the good deck armour.

Go to the top of the page

Brockpaine

The Shadow

Posts: 15,109

13

Thursday, August 28th 2014, 4:10pm

Most Russian carriers (indeed, most Russian ships) are based in the Northern Fleet, with the exception of Canopus in the Black Sea (probably serving as a training ship), and Strashniy in the Pacific. I don't see the Black or Baltic Seas being even remotely suitable for aircraft carriers, and so while ships may be built on those seas, they shan't stay there long past their working-up period.

I did question refitting the Minsk class, but it seems to work out just as well as the other two. Russia has relatively few ships in this size category (in the last ten years, only twenty-five new destroyers have been constructed), and so I'd prefer to rebuild and modernize otherwise capable ships, rather than have to replace in kind.

Go to the top of the page

Brockpaine

The Shadow

Posts: 15,109

14

Friday, August 29th 2014, 3:48am

I found a math error in a hidden column of my spreadsheet that nets me 36,000 tons.

A destroyer results.

The armament layout on Variant One is a bit... oddy, I admit. But the 2x2+1x1 layout was used historically on the Hatsuharu class destroyers. Not the ideal exemplar, I know, but the resemblance ends there. Variant Two is a Russification of a destroyer I built for Chile. A bit more expensive and with a bit lesser firepower, but generally a less knife-edged design. Honestly, I think I prefer Variant One just a wee a bit more.

It almost makes me want to build both classes - the more marginal Variant One for the Baltic, and then Variant Two for the Northern and Pacific fleets where seakeeping is more important. Yes, I know, it's a silly thing to do, but... *shrugs*.

Quoted

Variant One, Russian Destroyer laid down 1944

Displacement:
1,900 t light; 2,081 t standard; 2,385 t normal; 2,629 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
409.67 ft / 393.70 ft x 36.42 ft x 14.11 ft (normal load)
124.87 m / 120.00 m x 11.10 m x 4.30 m

Armament:
4 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns (2x2 guns), 79.37lbs / 36.00kg shells, 1944 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread
1 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns in single mounts, 79.37lbs / 36.00kg shells, 1944 Model
Automatic rapid fire gun in a deck mount with hoist
on centreline forward, 1 raised gun
8 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1944 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
4 - 0.55" / 14.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.08lbs / 0.04kg shells, 1944 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 410 lbs / 186 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 550
10 - 20.9" / 530 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm 0.79" / 20 mm
2nd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm 0.79" / 20 mm
3rd: 0.59" / 15 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -

- Conning tower: 1.18" / 30 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 42,904 shp / 32,007 Kw = 34.00 kts
Range 4,400nm at 18.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 548 tons

Complement:
169 - 221

Cost:
£1.703 million / $6.811 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 52 tons, 2.2 %
Armour: 15 tons, 0.6 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 11 tons, 0.4 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 5 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 1,022 tons, 42.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 707 tons, 29.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 485 tons, 20.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 105 tons, 4.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
724 lbs / 328 Kg = 10.8 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.18
Metacentric height 1.5 ft / 0.5 m
Roll period: 12.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.61
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.09

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.413
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.81 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.76 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 64
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21.98 ft / 6.70 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Mid (30 %): 20.67 ft / 6.30 m (13.45 ft / 4.10 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 13.45 ft / 4.10 m
- Stern: 13.45 ft / 4.10 m
- Average freeboard: 15.80 ft / 4.82 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 164.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 82.4 %
Waterplane Area: 9,233 Square feet or 858 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 87 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 39 lbs/sq ft or 189 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.79
- Overall: 0.57
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Quoted

Variant Two, Russian Destroyer laid down 1944

Displacement:
2,265 t light; 2,425 t standard; 2,745 t normal; 3,001 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
402.37 ft / 393.70 ft x 38.39 ft x 14.44 ft (normal load)
122.64 m / 120.00 m x 11.70 m x 4.40 m

Armament:
4 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns in single mounts, 79.37lbs / 36.00kg shells, 1944 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 15.43lbs / 7.00kg shells, 1944 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (2x4 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1944 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 0.55" / 14.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.08lbs / 0.04kg shells, 1944 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 392 lbs / 178 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 450
10 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.08" / 2 mm 0.79" / 20 mm
2nd: 0.59" / 15 mm 0.20" / 5 mm 0.20" / 5 mm
3rd: 0.59" / 15 mm 0.20" / 5 mm 0.20" / 5 mm

- Conning tower: 2.76" / 70 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 47,846 shp / 35,693 Kw = 34.00 kts
Range 6,500nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 576 tons

Complement:
189 - 246

Cost:
£1.910 million / $7.638 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 48 tons, 1.8 %
Armour: 22 tons, 0.8 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 11 tons, 0.4 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 12 tons, 0.4 %
Machinery: 1,172 tons, 42.7 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 862 tons, 31.4 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 480 tons, 17.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 160 tons, 5.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
958 lbs / 435 Kg = 14.3 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
Metacentric height 1.6 ft / 0.5 m
Roll period: 12.9 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.65
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.28

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.440
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.26 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.77 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 66 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 55
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 1.64 ft / 0.50 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 26.25 ft / 8.00 m
- Forecastle (25 %): 23.79 ft / 7.25 m
- Mid (50 %): 21.33 ft / 6.50 m (13.94 ft / 4.25 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 13.94 ft / 4.25 m
- Stern: 13.94 ft / 4.25 m
- Average freeboard: 18.80 ft / 5.73 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 160.6 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 95.5 %
Waterplane Area: 9,935 Square feet or 923 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 91 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 40 lbs/sq ft or 196 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 2.79
- Overall: 0.60
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Go to the top of the page

BruceDuncan

Ex chaos ordo

Posts: 12,916

15

Friday, August 29th 2014, 3:59am

Hmm. Interesting choices.

I personally don't find the 2x2 plus 1x1 layout odd; topweight dictates many things. But I agree with you that the design is knife edge and is not overly impressive. Have you considered cutting the main battery down to only the two twin 13cm guns? It would look rather like the OTL Russian Ognyevoi class - which carried two twin 130mm and a pair of 85mm AA?

As for variant 2, I think it is the better vessel and capable of deployment anywhere. I think you should confine yourself to only one design, rather than two.

Go to the top of the page

Brockpaine

The Shadow

Posts: 15,109

16

Friday, August 29th 2014, 4:12am

RF Navy doesn't seem to use 85mm AA guns, but there are some 75mm AA guns being introduced on new carriers.

Tried a slightly larger hull for V1 while still remaining true to the original weapons layout. I have a (perhaps irrational) dislike for the 2x2 layout, and I'd only consider it if I put the 75mm guns in the superfiring position (a la Halland).

Quoted

Soobrazitelny-class, Russian Destroyer laid down 1944

Displacement:
2,100 t light; 2,310 t standard; 2,634 t normal; 2,893 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
411.19 ft / 393.70 ft x 37.40 ft x 14.44 ft (normal load)
125.33 m / 120.00 m x 11.40 m x 4.40 m

Armament:
4 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns (2x2 guns), 79.37lbs / 36.00kg shells, 1944 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread
1 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns in single mounts, 79.37lbs / 36.00kg shells, 1944 Model
Automatic rapid fire gun in a deck mount with hoist
on centreline forward, 1 raised gun
4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 15.43lbs / 7.00kg shells, 1944 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
8 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1944 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
4 - 0.55" / 14.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.08lbs / 0.04kg shells, 1944 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 471 lbs / 214 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 550
10 - 20.9" / 530 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm 0.79" / 20 mm
2nd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.20" / 5 mm 0.79" / 20 mm
3rd: 0.59" / 15 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -

- Conning tower: 1.18" / 30 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 46,369 shp / 34,591 Kw = 34.00 kts
Range 4,400nm at 18.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 582 tons

Complement:
183 - 238

Cost:
£1.880 million / $7.519 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 58 tons, 2.2 %
Armour: 16 tons, 0.6 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 11 tons, 0.4 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 5 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 1,121 tons, 42.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 799 tons, 30.3 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 534 tons, 20.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 105 tons, 4.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
843 lbs / 382 Kg = 12.6 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.20
Metacentric height 1.6 ft / 0.5 m
Roll period: 12.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.65
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.19

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.434
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.53 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.74 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 66 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 60
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 24.61 ft / 7.50 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 23.79 ft / 7.25 m
- Mid (40 %): 22.97 ft / 7.00 m (13.12 ft / 4.00 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Stern: 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Average freeboard: 17.37 ft / 5.30 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 163.7 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 87.8 %
Waterplane Area: 9,629 Square feet or 895 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 89 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 40 lbs/sq ft or 195 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 2.29
- Overall: 0.58
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Go to the top of the page

Brockpaine

The Shadow

Posts: 15,109

17

Friday, August 29th 2014, 4:16am

I mentioned the Halland class and took a stab at making something with that layout. Actually had put together a Springsharp for that a year or so ago that got shelved... some quick tweaks made.

Quoted

V4, Russian Destroyer laid down 1944

Displacement:
1,945 t light; 2,131 t standard; 2,440 t normal; 2,687 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
409.67 ft / 393.70 ft x 36.42 ft x 14.11 ft (normal load)
124.87 m / 120.00 m x 11.10 m x 4.30 m

Armament:
4 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns (2x2 guns), 79.37lbs / 36.00kg shells, 1944 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns (1x2 guns), 15.43lbs / 7.00kg shells, 1944 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in a deck mount with hoist
on centreline forward, all raised guns - superfiring
8 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1944 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
4 - 0.55" / 14.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.08lbs / 0.04kg shells, 1944 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 361 lbs / 164 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 650
8 - 21.7" / 550 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.39" / 10 mm 0.39" / 10 mm
2nd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.39" / 10 mm 0.39" / 10 mm
3rd: 0.59" / 15 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -

- Conning tower: 1.18" / 30 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 43,794 shp / 32,670 Kw = 34.00 kts
Range 4,400nm at 18.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 556 tons

Complement:
173 - 225

Cost:
£1.706 million / $6.824 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 46 tons, 1.9 %
Armour: 17 tons, 0.7 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 13 tons, 0.5 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 5 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 1,051 tons, 43.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 696 tons, 28.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 495 tons, 20.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 135 tons, 5.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
744 lbs / 338 Kg = 11.1 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.19
Metacentric height 1.5 ft / 0.5 m
Roll period: 12.4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 68 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.51
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.07

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.422
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.81 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.73 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 63
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21.98 ft / 6.70 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 21.33 ft / 6.50 m
- Mid (30 %): 20.67 ft / 6.30 m (13.45 ft / 4.10 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 13.45 ft / 4.10 m
- Stern: 13.45 ft / 4.10 m
- Average freeboard: 15.80 ft / 4.82 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 164.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 91.2 %
Waterplane Area: 9,294 Square feet or 863 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 89 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 38 lbs/sq ft or 186 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.74
- Overall: 0.57
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

Go to the top of the page

Hood

Ugly Aircraft, Inc

Posts: 8,155

18

Friday, August 29th 2014, 9:54am

I like the V-4 the best. The seakeeping and stability are slightly lower than Soobrazitelny but it feels more balanced. I'm not easily visualising how four single 75mm and four twin 37mm would fit on the beams of the Soobrazitelny design along with space for the torpedoes. It's possible, but its going to be cramped. The V-4 should be much better in this regard and all the AA mounts should have better arcs. I've nothing against the 2x2 1x1 layout (suitably quirky for the Russians), but four 75mm singles just seems an overkill for that design. Maybe try a 2x2 1x1 but with a 2x1 75mm superfiring aft?

The V-2 looks good too, but here you've got four main mounts, four secondary mounts, four LAA mounts and the torpedoes, even more cramped to find space for all that lot!

I think that's a reasonable justification for the Minsk refits, having enough numbers is always difficult and these are still very powerful ships (more so after the refits). I always have doubts about how much life is realistically left in a hull that's experienced 16 years of wear and tear, heavy seas and arctic winters, but I guess these are still valuable ships to have until newer designs can get into service.

Go to the top of the page

BruceDuncan

Ex chaos ordo

Posts: 12,916

19

Friday, August 29th 2014, 1:51pm

The V4 design is better for the Baltic surely. I've taken the liberty of taking the V4 and offering a few changes - moving the 75mm battery aft and tweaking the freeboard forward, and the draft of the vessel, to get a bit more seaworthiness out of her.

------

TBD, Russian Destroyer laid down 1944

Displacement:
1,945 t light; 2,131 t standard; 2,440 t normal; 2,687 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
395.34 ft / 393.70 ft x 36.42 ft x 14.76 ft (normal load)
120.50 m / 120.00 m x 11.10 m x 4.50 m

Armament:
4 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns (2x2 guns), 79.37lbs / 36.00kg shells, 1944 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread
2 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns (1x2 guns), 15.43lbs / 7.00kg shells, 1944 Model
Automatic rapid fire guns in a deck mount with hoist
on centreline aft, all raised guns - superfiring
8 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (2x4 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1944 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
4 - 0.55" / 14.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.08lbs / 0.04kg shells, 1944 Model
Machine guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
Weight of broadside 361 lbs / 164 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 650
8 - 21.7" / 550 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.39" / 10 mm 0.39" / 10 mm
2nd: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.39" / 10 mm 0.39" / 10 mm
3rd: 0.59" / 15 mm 0.20" / 5 mm -

- Conning tower: 1.18" / 30 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 43,281 shp / 32,287 Kw = 34.00 kts
Range 4,400nm at 18.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 556 tons

Complement:
173 - 225

Cost:
£1.699 million / $6.797 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 46 tons, 1.9 %
Armour: 16 tons, 0.7 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 12 tons, 0.5 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 5 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 1,044 tons, 42.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 703 tons, 28.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 495 tons, 20.3 %
Miscellaneous weights: 135 tons, 5.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
752 lbs / 341 Kg = 11.2 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.20
Metacentric height 1.5 ft / 0.5 m
Roll period: 12.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 68 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.51
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.13

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has rise forward of midbreak
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.403
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.81 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.79 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 60
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 1.64 ft / 0.50 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 22.64 ft / 6.90 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 21.65 ft / 6.60 m
- Mid (30 %): 20.67 ft / 6.30 m (13.45 ft / 4.10 m aft of break)
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 13.45 ft / 4.10 m
- Stern: 13.45 ft / 4.10 m
- Average freeboard: 15.90 ft / 4.85 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 163.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 90.2 %
Waterplane Area: 9,178 Square feet or 853 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 89 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 38 lbs/sq ft or 187 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.86
- Overall: 0.57
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

Go to the top of the page

Brockpaine

The Shadow

Posts: 15,109

20

Friday, August 29th 2014, 2:29pm

Seems okay, although I wish the block coefficient was higher, and I'll need to move the 75mm guns back to the front.

I guess I'm just a bit too used to designing no-expense-spared destroyers like the Chilean Angamos and the French Forbin class. These designs just feel so... average. You know what I mean?

Go to the top of the page

WesWorld

Russian Ships for 1944

Russian Ships for 1944

Quoted from "BruceDuncan"

Quoted from "BruceDuncan"

Quoted

Quoted

Quoted

Quoted

Quoted

Quoted

Quoted

Quoted