WesWorld

As a player, I don't like dealing with a multiplicity of ship types; they're excessively confusing to keep track of, which makes things hard to deal with and less fun than they should be. Fortunately, building a 'multimission' hull is the kind of thing that navies find very attractive, if they can make it work, so my laziness is explicable in-character.

Thus, the design spec I'm asking of Nordmark's destroyers includes ASW, antiaircraft, and torpedo-deployment all together in a hull small enough to be affordable and large enough to operate in company with the carrier groups. Variant-tinkering suggests that cutting the operational range down to about 4,000 nm would be enough to get an additional knot out of the same size hull, albeit with penalties to seakeeping. What do people think?



DD45B, Nordmark Destroyer laid down 1945

Displacement:
1,505 t light; 1,609 t standard; 1,836 t normal; 2,018 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
334.84 ft / 328.08 ft x 32.81 ft x 13.12 ft (normal load)
102.06 m / 100.00 m x 10.00 m x 4.00 m

Armament:
4 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns in single mounts, 66.14lbs / 30.00kg shells, 1945 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (3x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1945 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 288 lbs / 131 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 400
8 - 24.0" / 610 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -
2nd: 0.39" / 10 mm - -

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 43,809 shp / 32,681 Kw = 33.00 kts
Range 5,500nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 408 tons

Complement:
139 - 182

Cost:
£1.440 million / $5.759 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 36 tons, 2.0 %
Armour: 10 tons, 0.6 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 10 tons, 0.6 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 893 tons, 48.6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 505 tons, 27.5 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 331 tons, 18.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 60 tons, 3.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
449 lbs / 204 Kg = 6.7 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.17
Metacentric height 1.3 ft / 0.4 m
Roll period: 12.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 46 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.54
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.75

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.455
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18.11 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 70 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Stern: 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Average freeboard: 14.39 ft / 4.39 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 178.3 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 43.3 %
Waterplane Area: 6,894 Square feet or 641 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 71 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 36 lbs/sq ft or 175 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 2.01
- Overall: 0.58
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is extremely poor
Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

I don't know. Something tells me you should be able to squeeze a bit more out of it. One thing I would do is bump the steadiness up a bit so it is at 50%. That should increase seakeeping a bit as well...

That didn't get saved? *checks* Ah, it didn't.

Yeah, Trim 62 gets me Stability 1.13 and Seakeeping 0.81, which seems to be the max in this configuration. Adding another two main guns, by increasing the deck-level mounts to twins, seems to add about a hundred tons and a .12 ding to potential Seakeeping, thus, and I don't really think that safety hit is worth it given the seas the Nords operate in:



DD45C, Nordmark Destroyer laid down 1945

Displacement:
1,642 t light; 1,780 t standard; 2,020 t normal; 2,212 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
334.84 ft / 328.08 ft x 36.09 ft x 13.12 ft (normal load)
102.06 m / 100.00 m x 11.00 m x 4.00 m

Armament:
6 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns (4 mounts), 66.14lbs / 30.00kg shells, 1945 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (3x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1945 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 420 lbs / 191 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 400
8 - 24.0" / 610 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -
2nd: 0.39" / 10 mm - -

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 47,402 shp / 35,362 Kw = 33.00 kts
Range 5,500nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 433 tons

Complement:
149 - 195

Cost:
£1.640 million / $6.561 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 53 tons, 2.6 %
Armour: 15 tons, 0.7 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 15 tons, 0.7 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 966 tons, 47.8 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 548 tons, 27.1 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 378 tons, 18.7 %
Miscellaneous weights: 60 tons, 3.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
459 lbs / 208 Kg = 6.8 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
Metacentric height 1.3 ft / 0.4 m
Roll period: 13.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.60
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.69

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.455
Length to Beam Ratio: 9.09 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 18.11 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 71 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 73
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Stern: 13.12 ft / 4.00 m
- Average freeboard: 14.39 ft / 4.39 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 180.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 52.7 %
Waterplane Area: 7,584 Square feet or 705 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 70 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 39 lbs/sq ft or 190 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.73
- Overall: 0.57
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Caution: Lacks seaworthiness - very limited seakeeping ability

One thing I see that your design lacks is the use of a transom stern; that configuration will help any modern design. I've played around with your original parameters and would suggest something like the design below. It has a slightly reduced LAA outfit but I think is a far more seaworthy design.

TBD, TBD Destroyer laid down 1945

Displacement:
1,647 t light; 1,751 t standard; 1,911 t normal; 2,040 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
368.18 ft / 360.89 ft x 34.45 ft x 13.12 ft (normal load)
112.22 m / 110.00 m x 10.50 m x 4.00 m

Armament:
4 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns in single mounts, 67.03lbs / 30.41kg shells, 1945 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
8 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1945 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 284 lbs / 129 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 400
8 - 24.0" / 610 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.59" / 15 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
2nd: 0.39" / 10 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -

- Conning tower: 0.98" / 25 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 34,368 shp / 25,639 Kw = 33.00 kts
Range 4,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 289 tons

Complement:
143 - 187

Cost:
£1.401 million / $5.606 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 35 tons, 1.9 %
Armour: 18 tons, 1.0 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 15 tons, 0.8 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 3 tons, 0.2 %
Machinery: 824 tons, 43.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 729 tons, 38.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 264 tons, 13.8 %
Miscellaneous weights: 40 tons, 2.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
815 lbs / 370 Kg = 12.2 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
Metacentric height 1.2 ft / 0.4 m
Roll period: 13.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.62
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.14

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.410
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.48 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.86 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 61
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 20.01 ft / 6.10 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 17.39 ft / 5.30 m
- Mid (50 %): 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
- Stern: 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
- Average freeboard: 15.89 ft / 4.84 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 158.2 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 69.0 %
Waterplane Area: 7,991 Square feet or 742 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 92 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 44 lbs/sq ft or 215 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.62
- Longitudinal: 2.79
- Overall: 0.72
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

I took one of my own designs and altered it so it was fairly similar to your first one. With slightly altered dimensions and BC, I could bump the speed up to 35 knots or settle for 34 knots with a 3x2 layout or 33 knots with a 1.30 seakeeping and steadiness of 70. Never hurts to play around a bit to see what things do.

Transom...

*facepalm*

My experience in Navalism betrays me again!

...As it does with my habit of limiting to a minimum BC of .45, come to think of it. Anyway.

Let's try... Variant D. Get that knot back to 34 back. I'd like to go a little smaller, but frankly I really doubt it's going to happen in any kind of practical way.




DD45D, Nordmark Destroyer laid down 1945

Displacement:
1,491 t light; 1,594 t standard; 1,784 t normal; 1,936 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
351.24 ft / 344.49 ft x 32.81 ft x 13.12 ft (normal load)
107.06 m / 105.00 m x 10.00 m x 4.00 m

Armament:
4 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns in single mounts, 66.14lbs / 30.00kg shells, 1945 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (3x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1945 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 288 lbs / 131 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 400
8 - 24.0" / 610 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.59" / 15 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
2nd: 0.39" / 10 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 38,438 shp / 28,675 Kw = 34.00 kts
Range 5,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 342 tons

Complement:
136 - 178

Cost:
£1.368 million / $5.471 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 36 tons, 2.0 %
Armour: 15 tons, 0.9 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 15 tons, 0.9 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 823 tons, 46.1 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 557 tons, 31.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 293 tons, 16.4 %
Miscellaneous weights: 60 tons, 3.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
539 lbs / 244 Kg = 8.0 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.19
Metacentric height 1.3 ft / 0.4 m
Roll period: 12.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.59
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.99

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.421
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.50 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.32 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 68 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
- Stern: 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
- Average freeboard: 15.49 ft / 4.72 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 170.8 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 56.2 %
Waterplane Area: 7,320 Square feet or 680 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 77 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 36 lbs/sq ft or 175 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 2.46
- Overall: 0.58
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

Missed the lack of Transom, but that is mainly because I used one of my own designs (with a transom) and worked from that rather than start from scratch.

I think the design's size is not too bad. Maybe try to raise the seaboat rating by 0.01?

Maybe. A 0.1m increase in freeboard at the midships point increases seakeeping to 1.01 and light tonnage to 1,507t. Not really sure it's worth it.


Incidentally, I picture the 50s-on upgrade path for these as swapping the 130mm DP guns out for 100mm automatic mounts, and with the CLs, the 150mm guns used there for 125mm autos.

Which will become drastically interesting for the guys downrange of the Luleas.

It's only 6 tons, surely a small price to pay?

Generally I like it, seems a bog-standard DD. Single guns are rare in WW these days.
My only comment is that 60 tons of misc weight seems a small amount, once you deduct 20tons for sonar and 10-15 tons for radar, you've not got much left for DCs or reload torpedoes on other 'goodies'. If you're after a true multi-role type, I think it would come in closer to 2,000 tons than 1,490.

It does seem to be particularly small for a 1940s destroyer. Although this is me talking... I'd call a 2,000t destroyer small, too.

Quoted

My only comment is that 60 tons of misc weight seems a small amount, once you deduct 20tons for sonar and 10-15 tons for radar, you've not got much left for DCs or reload torpedoes on other 'goodies'.

Not sure about others, but I calculate 3 tons for the 61cm torpedoes, so in case of Japan's Momo class destroyer, I have 48 tons for 16 torpedoes (8 loaded + 8 reloads) and 40 tons for DCs + gear to launch them. That ship has 250 tons of miscellaneous weights on a vessel that is ~ 2000 tons (normal). The Ukuru class Kaibokan has 66 tons for ASW weaponry on a ~1200 ton (normal) vessel. The Ukuru also carries 250 tons of miscellaneous weights around but it is significantly slower than a destroyer.

So if you were to go for just 8 torpedoes, you would need 24 tons and probably something like 20-25 tons for ~60 DCs and launch gear. I would probably go for some more 40mm rounds as well.

Quoted

Although this is me talking... I'd call a 2,000t destroyer small, too.

So I guess you plan something much bigger for a 'normal' destroyer then... like a Spruance class DD?

So, judging by discussion, it's sounding to me like my initial guesstimate falls short of the right weight for 'secondary mission gear' by about a hundred tons.

OK; taking that feedback and the hull tweak I was considering, I come out with something about like this...




DD45E, Nordmark Destroyer laid down 1945

Displacement:
1,701 t light; 1,809 t standard; 2,012 t normal; 2,175 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
367.64 ft / 360.89 ft x 36.09 ft x 13.12 ft (normal load)
112.06 m / 110.00 m x 11.00 m x 4.00 m

Armament:
4 - 5.12" / 130 mm guns in single mounts, 66.14lbs / 30.00kg shells, 1945 Model
Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
12 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns (3x4 guns), 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1945 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on centreline, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 288 lbs / 131 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 400
8 - 24.0" / 610 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0.98" / 25 mm 0.59" / 15 mm 0.98" / 25 mm
2nd: 0.39" / 10 mm 0.39" / 10 mm -

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 40,268 shp / 30,040 Kw = 34.00 kts
Range 5,000nm at 15.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 366 tons

Complement:
149 - 195

Cost:
£1.487 million / $5.947 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 36 tons, 1.8 %
Armour: 15 tons, 0.8 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Armament: 15 tons, 0.8 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
Machinery: 893 tons, 44.4 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 596 tons, 29.6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 311 tons, 15.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 160 tons, 8.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
626 lbs / 284 Kg = 9.3 x 5.1 " / 130 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.20
Metacentric height 1.5 ft / 0.5 m
Roll period: 12.3 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.43
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.96

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
and transom stern
Block coefficient: 0.412
Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 21.93 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 68 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 53
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 19.69 ft / 6.00 m
- Forecastle (15 %): 16.40 ft / 5.00 m
- Mid (50 %): 15.09 ft / 4.60 m
- Quarterdeck (10 %): 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
- Stern: 14.76 ft / 4.50 m
- Average freeboard: 15.62 ft / 4.76 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 168.1 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 73.3 %
Waterplane Area: 8,383 Square feet or 779 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 80 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 37 lbs/sq ft or 179 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.50
- Longitudinal: 1.96
- Overall: 0.57
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

Quoted

So, judging by discussion, it's sounding to me like my initial guesstimate falls short of the right weight for 'secondary mission gear' by about a hundred tons.

Depends on what you think you need on your design and how many of those things you need and what the weight of those things are. Based on that, you enter the amount of miscellaneous weights that you need for all that stuff together...

... not that I do that. I just dump a load of miscellaneous weights on a ship and then struggle to figure out what it should be for. With one design I have been working on lately, I ended up assigning some of the miscellaneous weights I had left over to a sushi restaurant, a pachinko parlor, karaoke facilities, Kobe Cola vending machines and a lounge. It was either that or 0.5 knots extra speed and in my opinion that 0.5 knot speed increase did not add much to the design...

When you're not sure about how much tons something should be, just spy on the designs of others to give you some ideas... at least that is what I do.

Yeah. I spy on Walter's designs for the same purpose, although I don't always use the same things he calls out in miscellaneous weight. Whether I use the ideas or not, it generally gets me thinking about different items and their place on a design. (I do try to research approximate weights for the various different items I install, though.)

Refined Miscellaneous Weight equipment list, developed from my own earlier destroyer refit designs:


5 tons general search radar
2 tons navigational radar
3 tons fire control radar
3 tons fire control computers
4 tons electronic-suite generators

48 tons torpedoes and support equipment

9 tons sonar
40 tons 80x depth charges and launching racks
20 tons 20x depth charges and forward throwing launchers

26 tons unplanned kipple allowance