WesWorld

The Italian army as currently detailed in the ency is a holdover from RA's tenure which was fleshed out by me shortly after taking over Italy. The current TO&E has many features that I feel are dated and it also excludes several OTL Italian units, most notably the Marines. I also did a very poor job of making it easy to understand how everything fits together. Given that the current details are for what is in effect a mid 1930's lineup, I feel a restructuring is appropriate. The goals of this follow.

--Remove unnecessary units to cause less of a manpower strain.
--Standardize unit structure to improve logistical efficiency (and OOC record keeping)
--Create clear goals for each type of unit and optimize its Organization and equipment for that purpose (You want doctrine, here we go)
--Better understand where new development needs to take place (Both IC and OOC)

With that in mind here are the major changes that will be coming.
--Elimination of the Arditi as a formation type. The role they serve is redundant in the proposed restructuring, the men and material freed up can be used elsewhere.
--Standardization on four main goals for unit types. Note this does not mean that units are totally incapable of performing a variety of actions, but this is the general roll there TO&E will be geared to.
----The Defensive. Meant to be the defensive backbone of the Army, holds the line. Does not have to be very mobile due to its mostly static strategic nature. This will be filled by "typical" Infantry.
----The Breakthrough. When the time to attack comes, these are the units that are meant to break the line and open up holes to exploit. This will be filled by Armor.
----The Exploiter/Preventer. Designed as being a high-mobility unit that can exploit or contain situations quickly. This will be filled by Motorized Infantry.
----The Support. The long distance reach of the ground forces, meant to give additional firepower to units without exposing themselves to return fire. This will be filed by the Artillery.
--Standardization of climate specialized supplements to units. Rather than having distinct TO&E’s for different climates, the goal is to move to supplemental add on units for the standard organization. This is so it is easier to move units around and make them optimized to conditions in the varied climates in which the Italian Army may fight. Some units will be structured with these by default, and will have differing equipment as opposed to the standard in addition to the noted supplements. Note multiple types may stack.
----Alpine. For high altitude.
----Desert. For arid.
----Marine. For amphibious.

Are there any questions before I begin posting numbers?

Quoted from "snip"

--Elimination of the Arditi as a formation type. The role they serve is redundant in the proposed restructuring, the men and material freed up can be used elsewhere.

...!

You're kidding, right? The Arditi are at least three-quarters of the soul of the Italian Army, and you're just going to eliminate them?

Quoted from "Brockpaine"

Quoted from "snip"

--Elimination of the Arditi as a formation type. The role they serve is redundant in the proposed restructuring, the men and material freed up can be used elsewhere.

...!

You're kidding, right? The Arditi are at least three-quarters of the soul of the Italian Army, and you're just going to eliminate them?

The name will live on! Somewhere. *plans tiny plaque somewhere in Headquarters building*

I didn't forget about this, life got crazy. Seeing as the goal to this reorg is partially to make it easier to understand how things fit together, I though it would be best to start at the very bottom and build from there. This comes with the caveat that most of the smaller units are simply outlined to aid in the makeup of larger ones, anything smaller then Battalion (or maybe Company) level is unlikely to see much detail in the official ency posts. With that in mind, here are the basic squads and platoons of the Italian Army.

Squads
Infantry: A basic infantry squad
--10 Men (Three 3-man fire teams, One commander)
--9 Rifles
--1 SMG

Motorized Infantry: The basic infantry squad plus Battletaxi.
--13 Men (Three 3-man fire teams, One commander, Three APC crew)
--9 Rifles
--2 SMG
--1 APC

Machine Gun: Rather self-explanatory.
--4 Men
--2 Rifles
--2 Machine Guns

Anti-Tank Fire Support (ATFS): Equipped with a Umo EP
--4 Men
--4 Rifles
--1 Man Portable Anti-Tank weapon

Mortar: Rather self-explanatory.
--4 Men
--4 Rifles
--1 Mortar

Recon: Rather self-explanatory.
--4 Men
--3 Rifles
--1 SMG

Command: Rather self-explanatory.
--5 Men
--4 Rifles
--1 Truck

Platoons
Infantry: Three Infantry Squads, One HMG Squad, One Mortar Squad, One ATFS Squad, One Command Squad
--47 Men
--41 Rifles
--3 SMG
--2 MG
--1 Mortar
--1 Man Portable AT
--1 Truck

Motorized Infantry: Three Motorized Infantry Squads, One HMG Squad, One Mortar Squad, One ATFS Squad, One Command Squad
--60 Men (One additional crew for command APC, one additional truck driver)
--41 Rifles
--6 SMG
--4 APC (one additional as command APC)
--2 MG
--1 Mortar
--1 Man Portable AT
--2 Trucks

Recon: Three Recon Squads
--14 Men (Two man command team)
--8 Rifles
--6 SMG

Armored Recon: Scout Cars go here
--8 Men
--4 Rifles
--2 Wheeled Armor

Armored: Tanks and such
--40 men
--16 Rifles
--6 Tanks
--4 Trucks

Mortar: Three Mortar Squads
--14 Men (Two man command team)
--13 Rifles
--3 Mortars

Field Gun: Lighter (75mm and 105mm) guns
--18 Men
--18 Rifles
--3 Field Guns

Heavy Artillery: Big (149mm, 210mm) guns
--24 Men
--6 Rifles
--3 Heavy Guns

Anti-Tank: 47mm AT guns go here
--14 Men
--14 Rifles
--3 Anti-Tank guns

Heavy Weapons: Three MG Squads, Three ATFS Squads.
--24 Men
--18 Rifles
--6 MG
--3 Man Portable Anti-Tank

Light Anti-Aircraft: 25mm AA guns
--14 Men
--8 Rifles
--3 Light AA Guns

Heavy Anti-Aircraft: 75mm and 90mm AA guns
--18 Men
--10 Rifles
--3 Heavy AA guns

Logistics: Ammo? Fuel? Spare Parts? Got it all right here.
--20 Men
--10 Rifles
--10 Trucks

Command: Rather self-explanatory.
--20 Men
--10 Rifles
--5 Trucks

Comments?

Warning, Incoming wall of text and numbers. If you bother to read it all, please comment and tell me just how off-base some of these numbers are.

Companies

Infantry: Three Infantry Platoon, One Recon Platoon, One Heavy Weapons Platoon, One Mortar Platoon, One Anti-Tank Platoon, One Light AA Platoon, One Command Platoon, One Logistics Platoon
--261 Men
--204 Rifles
--15 SMG
--12 MG
--6 Mortar
--6 Man Portable AT
--3 Anti-Tank
--3 Light AA
--16 Truck

Motorized Infantry: Three Motorized Inf Platoon, One Recon Platoon, One Armored Recon Platoon, One Heavy Weapons Platoon, One Mortar Platoon, One Anti-Tank Platoon, One Light AA Platoon, One Command Platoon, One Logistics Platoon
--308 Men
--208 Rifles
--24 SMG
--12 APC
--12 MG
--6 Mortar
--6 Man Portable AT
--3 Anti-Tank
--3 Light AA
--21 Trucks

Artillery: Three Field Gun Platoons, One Heavy Artillery Platoon, One Command Platoon, Two Logistics Platoon
--138 Men
--100 Rifles
--9 Field Guns
--3 Heavy Artillery
--20 Trucks

Anti-Aircraft: Three Light AA Gun Platoons, One Heavy AA Platoon, One Command Platoon, Two Logistics Platoons
--120 Men
--64 Rifles
--9 Light Anti-Air
--3 Heavy Anti-Air
--25 Trucks

Armored: Three Armored Platoons, One Armored Recon Platoon, One Motorized Infantry Platoon, One Command Platoon, Two Logistics Platoons, One additional Command Armor and crew.
--252 Men
--133 Rifles
--6 SMG
--4 APC
--2 MG
--1 Mortar
--1 Man-Portable Anti-Tank
--31 Trucks
--19 Armor

Anti-Tank:Three Anti-Tank Platoons, Command Platoon, Logistics Platoon
--82 Men
--62 Rifles
--9 AT Guns
--15 Trucks

Command
--30 Men
--10 Rifles
--4 APC
--3 Trucks

Logistics
--50 Men
--25 Rifles
--25 Trucks


Battalions

Infantry: Three Infantry Companies, One Field Gun Platoon, One Anti-Aircraft Company, One Anti-Tank Company, One Command Company, One Logistics Company
--1083 Men
--791 Rifles
--45 SMG
--36 MG
--18 Mortar
--27 Man Portable AT
--18 Anti-Tank
--18 Light AA
--3 Heavy AA
--121 Trucks
--4 APC
--3 Field Guns

Motorized Infantry: Three Motorized Infantry Companies, One Field Gun Platoon, One Anti-Aircraft Company, One Anti-Tank Company, One Command Company, One Logistics Company
--1224 Men
--803 Rifles
--72 SMG
--40 APC
--36 MG
--18 Mortar
--27 Man Portable AT
--18 Anti-Tank
--18 Light AA
--3 Heavy AA
--3 Field Guns
--136 Trucks

Artillery: Three Artillery Companies, One Command Company, Two Logistics Companies
--544 Men
--360 Rifles
--27 Field Guns
--9 Heavy Artillery
--113 Trucks
--4 APC

Anti-Aircraft: Three Anti-Aircraft Companies, One Command Company, Two Logistics Companies
--490 Men
--252 Rifles
--27 Light Anti-Air
--9 Heavy Anti-Air
--128 Trucks
--4 APC

Armored: Three Armored Companies, One Anti-Aircraft Company, One Command Company, Two Logistics Companies
--1006 Men
--523 Rifles
--18 SMG
--16 APC
--6 MG
--3 Mortar
--3 Man-Portable Anti-Tank
--171 Trucks
--57 Armor
--9 Light Anti-Air
--3 Heavy Anti-Air

Command
--100 Men
--40 Rifles
--20 APC
--10 Trucks

Logistics
--100 Men
--50 Rifles
--50 Trucks

Regiments

Infantry: Three Infantry Battalions, One Command Battalion, One Logistics Battalion
--3449 Men
--2383 Rifles
--135 SMG
--108 MG
--54 Mortar
--81 Man Portable AT
--54 Anti-Tank
--54 Light AA
--9 Heavy AA
--366 Trucks
--16 APC
--9 Field Guns

Motorized Infantry: Three Motorized Infantry Battalions, One Command Battalion, One Logistics Battalion
--3872 Men
--2499 Rifles
--216 SMG
--140 APC
--108 MG
--54 Mortar
--81 Man Portable AT
--54 Anti-Tank
--54 Light AA
--9 Heavy AA
--9 Field Guns
--468 Trucks

Artillery: Three Artillery Battalions, One Command Battalion, Two Logistics Battalions
--1932 Men
--1220 Rifles
--81 Field Guns
--27 Heavy Artillery
--449 Trucks
--32 APC

Anti-Aircraft: Three Anti-Aircraft Battalions, One Command Battalion, Two Logistics Battalions
--1770 Men
--896 Rifles
--81 Light Anti-Air
--27 Heavy Anti-Air
--494 Trucks
--32 APC

Armored: Three Armored Battalions, One Command Battalion, Two Logistics Battalions
--3318 Men
--1709 Rifles
--54 SMG
--68 APC
--18 MG
--9 Mortar
--9 Man-Portable Anti-Tank
--623 Trucks
--171 Armor
--27 Light Anti-Air
--9 Heavy Anti-Air

Command
--350 Men
--150 Rifles
--30 APC
--30 Trucks

Logistics
--400 Men
--200 Rifles
--300 Trucks

Divisions

Infantry: Three Infantry Regiments, One Artillery Regiment, One Anti-Aircraft Regiment, One Command Regiment, One Logistics Regiment
--14249 Men
--9355 Rifles
--405 SMG
--324 MG
--162 Mortar
--243 Man Portable AT
--162 Anti-Tank
--243 Light AA
--54 Heavy AA
--2371 Trucks
--142 APC
--108 Field Guns
--27 Heavy Artillery

Motorized Infantry: Three Motorized Infantry Regiments, One Artillery Regiment, One Armored Regiment, One Anti-Aircraft Regiment, One Command Regiment, One Logistics Regiment
--19386 Men
--11672 Rifles
--783 SMG
--518 APC
--342 MG
--171 Mortar
--252 Man Portable AT
--162 Anti-Tank
--270 Light AA
--63 Heavy AA
--108 Field Guns
--27 Heavy Artillery
--3300 Trucks
--171 Armor


Armored: Three Armored Regiments, One Motorized Infantry Regiment, One Artillery Regiment, One Anti-Aircraft Regiment, One Command Regiment, One Logistics Regiment
--18278 Men
--10092 Rifles
--378 SMG
--374 APC
--162 MG
--81 Mortar
--108 Man-Portable Anti-Tank
--2667 Trucks
--513 Armor
--216 Light Anti-Air
--63 Heavy Anti-Air
--90 Field Guns
--27 Heavy Artillery

Some quick comments on the wall of numbers

Quoted

Companies

Infantry: Three Infantry Platoon, One Recon Platoon, One Heavy Weapons Platoon, One Mortar Platoon, One Anti-Tank Platoon, One Light AA Platoon, One Command Platoon, One Logistics Platoon

Specialist reconnaissance and light AA units are rather superfluous pushed down to this level. The same may be said for motorized infantry

Quoted

Artillery: Three Field Gun Platoons, One Heavy Artillery Platoon, One Command Platoon, Two Logistics Platoon

Mixing artillery pieces at the battery/company level is a logistics nightmare waiting to happen. The same can be said for antiaircraft artillery units

Quoted

Battalions

Infantry: Three Infantry Companies, One Field Gun Platoon, One Anti-Aircraft Company, One Anti-Tank Company, One Command Company, One Logistics Company

Having heavy AA guns in an infantry battalion is wasteful; they would be lacking fire direction and would provide insufficient barrage capability to make their presence worthwhile. Without details as to exactly what weapons constitute Light AA, it is difficult to consider whether their number is excessive or not but their quantity seems to the high side of the equation.

The same applies to motorized infantry and armored battalions.


Divisions

I’ve skipped over regiments because the same comments apply to them as to battalions.

The infantry division is understrength and has too many troops in specialist units (AA, artillery, etc). The number of artillery pieces – 108 – is 1.5 to 3 times the number of tubes assigned to historical units. Heavy artillery pieces ought not to be at the divisional level. The comments on AA units continue to apply.

The motorized infantry division is overstrength with far too many antitank, antiaircraft and artillery pieces. Nearly seven thousand personnel lack personal weapons (19,386 men, only 11,672 rifles and 783 SMG)

The armored division has the same problems as the motorized infantry division – far too many tanks to be controlled, far too many artillery pieces and antiaircraft weapons.

Comments on Comments.

First, to clear up some terminology (which I somewhat addressed further up in the thread). I have yet to go into huge equipment breakdowns in my spreadsheet, so I did not think to include this info.

--Anti-Aircraft: Light AA at this point it meant to represent the 25mm OTO-Masden cannon in its various mountings. I felt that given the very light nature of this weapon, it would be reasonable to include it at low levels. The light nature also means it needs to be massed in order to be effective. The Heavy AA is two categories. When shown in anything other then dedicated AA formations leading up to Divisional-level AA regiments, heavy refers to the 75/46 AC Mod34. In the dedicated AA formations, it refers to the 90/53 Mod43. The intent is for the Mod34 to provide some additional firepower to support the 25mm cannon on a tactical scale, while the divisional level AA regiment with its Mod43 is the backbone of the overall ADN. My thought on doing such a breakdown was that it would allow for more local control over some air deference assets without eating away at the Divisional AA's central planing. As to the mix of guns, that is the reason for the inclusion of two logistics battalions as opposed to one.

--Arty: Here Field guns refer to the 75mm pieces (which piece depends on other factors). Heavy Guns refer to the 105/28 Mod35. The same sort of structure may be used for units that use the 149mm weapons, but as you note those would be attached farther up and moved around as needed. The 210mm gun is a special case and as such is not detailed here. As to the mix of guns, that is the reason for the inclusion of two logistics battalions as opposed to one.

Companies
--Infantry/Motos: I figure that 14 men would not really tip the scale to far for the recon. It made sense to me to attach them at lower units because that places them close to the action. I wanted to give the Motos a specialized Armored Recon Platoon because due to the intended roll as breakthrough exploiters (the Armored being the spear that causes the break) they would benefit from having a specialized recon detachment as the areas they are oporating in may or may not have changed significantly since the last recon teams were there.

Battalions:
--I hope my clarifications on the noted Heavy AA and the intended roll of such help these figures make more sense.

Divisions.
--General Note: I cant quite figure out why things got so wonky number wise in the Men:Rifles ratio here. My guess is that it somewhat stems from my assumption that Regimental and Divisional level command staffs and Logistics units did not need as many Rifles in relation to there manpower as those in smaller formations. Is this an appropriate assumption to make? Assuming that ratio gets corrected/is correct, then the remaining dependency likely comes from various lower formations with smaller gaps that are magnified going up the scale. It would be a simple matter to give everyone a Rifle, but I did not feel that was the most accurate representation.

--Motos: The balloon here comes from me stapling a Armored Regiment onto the Divisional pattern of the Infantry Division. I felt that providing the Motos with some indigenous Armor was a good idea due to there intended use. Taking that away results in a manpower of 16068, with other figures modified appropriately.

--Armored: Sort of the same thing as the Motos, I stapled on a Moto regiment to give them additional infantry. It should probably be removed. When you say there are to many tanks, where in the smaller formations does that issue arise?

As far as the issue of the number of tanks is concerned, it really creeps in at the regimental level.

I commend to you the Niehorster orbat site which has in it many different sample TOEs that can help balance what you have thus far.

I have done some digging there while working on this, but nothing I have found there really matches what I'm trying to do.

Droping to 4 tanks in a Armored Platoon makes it so the numbers look like this. 4->13->39->117->351 Better?

Throwing aside the numbers for a sec, does the basic organizational layout I have make sense or am I really far off base a "practical" setup?

Quoted from "snip"

I have done some digging there while working on this, but nothing I have found there really matches what I'm trying to do.

Droping to 4 tanks in a Armored Platoon makes it so the numbers look like this. 4->13->39->117->351 Better?

Throwing aside the numbers for a sec, does the basic organizational layout I have make sense or am I really far off base a "practical" setup?

There is a lot of information there; and not being exactly certain of your intent, I merely mention it as a suggestion.

350 tanks in a division is far better than more than 500, but still is a lot to handle. If you look at historical armored divisions, the number would vary between 150 and 300, with a general trend downward as war experience wore on.

I think your present approach is too mechanistic and needs to be more flexible.

Stuff on why I'm doing this reorg is in the OP.

Going away from Formulaic on OrBats in the past has just gotten me lost and frustrated. I feel by doing it this way I can limit the number of assumptions I make and seeing how my assumptions tend to go very wrong the first couple passes it means I can figure out where the issue started up. While it may not be prefect, I feel it is the best way to lay out my assumptions in such a way that it makes it easy for myself and other to see the impact of assumptions and adjustments. The better the numbers look, the more deep detail I can add (such as recon assets higher up), including adjustments that alter things more significantly (such as moving around Arty).