WesWorld

Hello, if there are no outstanding objections, I would like to request to play Denmark.

I'm fine with it, though I'd like to hear more about what sort of things you have in mind for Denmark.

No objections here.

Generally speaking, I am on the same page with Brock; I have no objections but I would like to hear more about future plans for Denmark. There is a lot of catching up to be done, alas.

I'm okay with this.

I'm okay with this too.

I think it is worth trying it.

What are your ideas/plans with Denmark?

I've only had time recently to think about the subject shallowly. I'll try to have a more concrete plan in mind by the coming weekend, but here's what I have so far:

Minor curtailing of the coastal/submarine fleet; 75 submarines and other misc assets seems a bit excessive given the small region to defend & the nature of that region.
Minor increase in land forces since German has 3 infantry divisions and 1 panzerdivision in the province bordering Denmark.

Attempt to ally Germany or another neighboring power, since AEGIS is now defunct. Without Netherlands and Italy, there is little benefit for Denmark to remain in it.
Depending on what Danish prospective allies want, reconfigure the fleet.

Flesh out the Danish airforce, which has been missing in the encyclopedia. I'm currently leaning on a heavily air-superiority based airforce, since there is no target on whom Denmark can meaningfully/proportionally conduct strategic bombing.

Still most borders are relatively secure, by distance and by non-aggression pacts, focus on industrial development.

IIRC Denmark always had good relations with Nordmark. Might be the partner you really need...

Quoted from "Logi"

Minor increase in land forces since German has 3 infantry divisions and 1 panzerdivision in the province bordering Denmark.

If I may comment on this one and offer some of my opinions...

As of 1944, Denmark has a historical population of ~3.9 million people. The current army (which I designed for Commodore Green) currently stands at about 75,000 men, which is a ratio of roughly 19 soldiers per thousand civilians. This ignores the manpower of the navy and air force - and given the sheer size of the Royal Danish Navy, I'd expect a massive manpower drain from that direction.

I'd suggest that what Denmark needs is not an increase in land forces, but a decrease in land forces accompanied by a sharply increased degree of professionalization and a re-organization to make the existing units more effective. For instance, due to my... er, ignorance of army organization when proposing the Danish OOB to Mac, the Danish armoured units are scattered in penny-packet formations. The Danish infantry battalions are woefully undersized... and so on and so forth. Having gained five years of experience, I could provide a pretty detailed list of the mistakes I made with that 2009 order-of-battle, and make suggestions about how to rectify them.

I talked quite a lot with Mac when he was still here, and Bulgaria bought a lot of the Danish-built equipment at the time. I should still have a bit of that information - Mac's drawings, at least - and before you get too far I should make sure you understand everything he had floating around out there.

Quoted from "Logi"

Flesh out the Danish airforce, which has been missing in the encyclopedia. I'm currently leaning on a heavily air-superiority based airforce, since there is no target on whom Denmark can meaningfully/proportionally conduct strategic bombing.

That's probably a good choice. I'll tell you that back in 1942ish, France did sell Denmark a bit of radar equipment and started to help the country develop a detailed early-warning network, and that sort of collaboration could definitely continue in the form of aircraft, AA weaponry, etc. Up to this point, Denmark has manufactured some of their own aircraft, but IIRC France (primarily Hispano-Suiza) was providing most of their aircraft engines. Somewhere - I'll have to find it - I have the specs for the latest Danish fighter, which was a sort of J7W Shinden (Mac was particularly fond of unusual aircraft configurations).

As discussed...

I'm thinking now of reducing the army size from the current 100,000 (1936-7 from Commodore) down to 25,000. This will be followed by an increase in "heavy" assets, such as artillery, tanks, etc. That is, a more fully mechanized and expensive army in exchange for a less manpower intensive one.

In the area of tanks, I am considering buying mostly complete tanks from neutral countries and then building and applying any modifications at home. In that sense, the risk from arms embargoes to maintenance is minimized. I define neutral as: 1) Not likely to embargo Denmark, and 2) Will not give Denmark a bad reputation for dealing with them. For example, as I gather India and China would seem to pass on point 1 and fail on point 2.

As for the airforce, I've been thinking about continuing the collaboration with France. Depending on the specs of the latest Danish fighter and the state of it's aviation industry, I might elect to simply buy French planes.

On the Navy side of things, the short-term naval plan beyond the retirement of ~30 submarines in that 75 submarine force is:
1) Building a large amphibious assault / docking ship
2) Building 2 large AOE ships.
3) Look into retiring old ships and replacing them.

Denmark has quite a few factories but no pressing uses for them, thus I can afford to "blow tonnage" on expensive vessels to extend strategic flexibility.

The Danes have had a pretty robust tank and aircraft industry in the past, there were tie-ups with Italian firms etc. and of course the AEGIS partners brought a lot of Danish equipment.
Commodore Green's DAF aircraft firm had subsidiaries in Iberia and Italy (DAF Iberia and DAF Italia) and another firm was S.A.I. (an historic firm I believe). Of course little, if anything, has been heard since the early 1940s when a few types were offered to Peru. Given the collapse of AEGIS, whether Denmark will retain these arms trading links is something you would need to work out with Rocky and Snip.

The strategic requirements for Denmark have shifted now, though she still has a few colonial outposts, she no longer needs to protect Siam and co-operate in the Caribbean, so you have the chance to start from a clean sheet. Probably much of the Danish fleet is overdue for refits etc.

Quoted from "Hood"

whether Denmark will retain these arms trading links is something you would need to work out with Rocky and Snip.

*buries Logi under a pile of catalogs*

Quoted

As discussed...

I'm thinking now of reducing the army size from the current 100,000 (1936-7 from Commodore) down to 25,000. This will be followed by an increase in "heavy" assets, such as artillery, tanks, etc. That is, a more fully mechanized and expensive army in exchange for a less manpower intensive one.

In the area of tanks, I am considering buying mostly complete tanks from neutral countries and then building and applying any modifications at home. In that sense, the risk from arms embargoes to maintenance is minimized. I define neutral as: 1) Not likely to embargo Denmark, and 2) Will not give Denmark a bad reputation for dealing with them. For example, as I gather India and China would seem to pass on point 1 and fail on point 2.

Quoted from "Hood"

The Danes have had a pretty robust tank and aircraft industry in the past...

As I told Logi on the IRC a few days ago, the Bille line probably is getting long in the tooth and in need of some sort of more modern replacement.

For myself, I think the decision as to whether or not to build or buy comes down to the quantity needed. If I need to get only 50-150 vehicles, then I buy - no question about it, that'll be cheaper and faster. But if I need 500 vehicles, and have very stringent specifications, then I'd design my own and build them. If I need a thousand tanks, well, that's no question at all.

Logi, I know I councilled that you look into buying something - and I still feel that may be a viable option. But at the same time, I'm starting to wonder if your requirements for heavier armour and less mobility might result in there simply being no tanks that do the job. I'd say that if Denmark purchased two hundred tanks, then even though the cost will be high on a per-unit basis (as the economies of scale are only starting to come into play), it may still be better for you to build from the ground up.

Let me ponder it a bit, and I'll propose some specs for your consideration.

Quoted

As for the airforce, I've been thinking about continuing the collaboration with France. Depending on the specs of the latest Danish fighter and the state of it's aviation industry, I might elect to simply buy French planes.

While I'd absolutely love to sell you French aircraft - and I have a lot of aircraft that you could use - I think you'll probably be fine on the land-based fighter count. I'm still hunting for the specs I made for Commodore Green, but I'll send them to you when I find them.

I think Denmark, as it has been played in Wesworld in the past, can provide themselves trainers and fighters. If memory serves, the Danes also had some sort of twin engine bomber - a push-pull type with a bicycle undercarriage. Mac made a lot of drawings of a lot of very interesting different projects - with an emphasis on 'different'. I don't think Denmark ever made an airplane that I would call normal, per se: push-pull bombers, canard pusher fighters, bicycle undercarriages, etc. The few specs that ever appeared with the aircraft came on the images, which have now been lost on internet. So... unless Mac returns and posts those images again, I fear a lot of those designs are irrevocably lost. One of the reasons I abhor posting specs or data using an image.

Quoted from "Hood"

The Danes have had a pretty robust tank and aircraft industry in the past, there were tie-ups with Italian firms etc. and of course the AEGIS partners brought a lot of Danish equipment.
Commodore Green's DAF aircraft firm had subsidiaries in Iberia and Italy (DAF Iberia and DAF Italia) and another firm was S.A.I. (an historic firm I believe).

If memory serves, S.A.I. manufactures civil aircraft and light trainers, which seems to be their area of expertise. They might also have manufactured the gyro-kites the Danish Navy uses.

DAF always felt to me a lot like AEGIS's prototype shop. A lot of cutting-edge sorts of projects, but in low or experimental quantities. Maybe that's just me, though.

Speaking as France, I could provide you with several different possibilities in terms of aircraft, if you're interested. I have not yet sold Denmark any actual aircraft, but Hispano-Suiza sold them engines and armament, and I sold Denmark most of their air defense radar.

I'd made an effort at one point to sell the Liore-et-Olivier LeO-400 seaplane to Denmark and the Baltic states. The LeO is a pretty modern floatplane used for naval search, and it's sold pretty widely: France, Greece, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia... I'd have to check my notes to see if there are any others.

For carrier aircraft, I could sell you Milan fighters and Epaulard bombers. Given the number I've produced of both types (I'm estimating over two thousand Milans have been built by this point, which is a lot for peacetime), you can probably get them pretty cheaply by this point.

If you're unhappy with the canard-pusher fighter, France would be happy to sell you VG.64 Revenants, which is a fairly standard fighter; I envisioned it as a cross between a Mustang, a Yak-9/Yak-3, and a G.55. But on the basis of memory, I think the Danish fighter has a bit more in terms of power and speed - I think it was 2,000 hp from a specially-built Hispano-Suiza sixteen-cylinder V engine (my standard HS-12Z lengthened by four cylinders): Denmark is the only user at present. Top speed, I believe, was somewhere in the 430 mph to 450 mph range.

It sounds like you probably don't need bombers.

Found it. I also found Mac's Photobucket account, and he's still got all his drawings up there.

Quoted

DAF Peregrine

General characteristics
Crew: 1
Length: 9.7 m (31 ft 10 in)
Wingspan: 11.7 m ( ft in)
Height: 3.3 m (10 ft 10 in)
Wing area: 22.45 m² (241.65 ft²) including canards
Empty weight: 3,440.4 kg (7,584.8 lb)
Loaded weight: 3,917 kg (8,637 lb)
Max weight: 4,387.6 kg (9,673 lb)
Powerplant: 1× Hispano-Suiza / DAF V16 inline engine (1628hp / 1,214 kW) driving four-bladed contra-rotating pusher propellers

Performance
Maximum speed: 695 km/h (375.3 kn, 431.8 mph)
Range: 800 km (432 nmi, 497 mi)
Service ceiling: 11,500 m (37,730 ft)
Rate of climb: 13.75 m/s (2706.7 ft/min)
Power-to-Weight Ratio: 0.309 kW/kg (0.188 hp/lb)
Wing Loading: 174.5 kg/m² (35.75 lb//ft²)

Armament
- 4 × 20 mm Hispano-Suiza HS.404 (60 rounds per gun) cannon

Notes
DAF V-16 engine is designed specifically for pusher operation with contra-rotating propellers; the engine is based off the Hispano-Suiza HS-12Z, with final assembly by DAF.

The above followed (and replaced?) a series of pusher fighters called the Falcon. No specs available; I could take guesses at them, but that's all it would be: guesses.





The bicycle-geared attack aircraft I remembered. Apparently built by DAF Italia, which I didn't remember. Snip, did Italy buy any of these?

Quoted from "Brockpaine"

The bicycle-geared attack aircraft I remembered. Apparently built by DAF Italia, which I didn't remember. Snip, did Italy buy any of these?

If they did, RA never noted in in the ency, so Im going to say no. Then again, DAF itself was never noted in the ency. So, seems I have some [more] news digging to do.

And the tanks/vehicles. This is a comparison of the line of Danish tanks.


MkI: 37mm gun.
MkIa: 75mm howitzer
MkII: 57mm gun.
MkIII: 75mm gun?
KvIV: ???

I do know, incidentally, that Denmark uses diesel engines for their tanks. A Danish proposal for Chile cited a MkIIa variant with a 57mm gun and a 550hp diesel, capable of 45kph on road, 30kph off road. To whit:


The text on the image speaks for itself.


Bulgaria ordered a bunch of these.


These are cute, but I'm not sure they're all that useful unless you're capable of heli-lifting or airdropping them as an airborne armoured vehicle.


Denmark also made half-tracks. These vehicles were made for Denmark...



These are titled "Proposed Halftracks", so I don't know if any were ever built.


And because I disliked the two road wheels, when I ordered them for Bulgaria they were lengthened slightly.


I don't ever recall seeing this before.


A series of heavy trucks.


A series of light trucks.


Denmark also fielded artillery rockets in Russian-style launchers. Code-name was "Orchestra" - I think Mac intended for that name to stick.

Those tanks look like Scorpions

Quoted from "snip"

Those tanks look like Scorpions

I absolutely agree - they do. I think that's part of the reason I like them so much - though admittedly they have a more modern appearance than 1930s-40s.